Yet another electrical question on a WW tool

To those "in the know". If there is "leakage" like this, does it mean that their might be risk of shock to the user or fire (from overheating?). Just curious. I've already picked up a new question I've saving for I look at used equipment for sale: "Yes, But will it run on a GFCI-protected circuit?" : )

On 10/15/2013 7:38 PM, Bill wrote: ...

...

Theoretically (that's why the GFCI limit is set so low), yes, 4-5 mA directly across the heart region is enough to be fatal. But, to get that means you've got be be holding onto the side that is hot with one hand and have the other on a solid ground so the path is through you and the entire leakage current of that magnitude is through you.

So possible, yes; at all likely really not, especially in absence of water or other way to get a solid ground. For pool equipment, other wet areas like shavers, etc., around bath sinks, etc., and as I mentioned before, heaters for livestock waterers and so on where there is a pretty good chance that you could get the ground they've a purpose but for the general shop area as a general rule they're really overdoing it imo.

It is not an overcurrent protection issue at all; that's what the regular circuit breaker is for.

That should have been your very first troubleshooting act, more than likely saving you a good deal of time, money and typing.

If it doesn't solve the problem, then it isolates the problem to somewhere from the plug, to the motor on the tool itself.

Think no further.

OK this is an update on my issue:

Came home from work and tried the jointer again on the original circuit. (Some times things heal themselves.) Ran for about 4 minutes and popped the GFCI. Tried a third GFCI circuit and it popped right away.

At work today I called an EE and asked him about the NEC. He said that the code said that in an un-finished basement used for storage or work, the outlets needed to be protected by a GFCI. I guess all I have to do is finish the basement and I won't need no stinkin' GFCI.

OK, back to the problem. Connected the jointer to a non GFCI circuit and it ran OK for about 10-15 minutes (no load).

Here's my plan.

1. I'm gonna pull the motor out although it's a real pain to get to because I really want to check carefully for dust build-up. Also, I want to see if 220VAC is a possibility.

1. I'm gonna get a brand new, 20A GFCI outlet for that circuit.

2. If the trouble persists, I'm gonna run a dedicated 20A line (non-GFCI) to the jointer and get on with my life.

I may skip step 2. Got to think on it more.

---------------------------------------------------------- Based on the above, the first thing I would do is verify whether motor can be wired for 240V.

If so, problem is solved.

Rewire and move on.

If not, then assuming you don't already have one, get a 50 ft, 10-3 molded cord set and use it to plug jointer into non GFCI receptacle and get on with life.

Why a 10-3 rather than a less expensive 12-3?

Less voltage drop at the motor terminals.

Last choice would be to replace GFCI receptacle.

BTW, a coat of paint on the walls could be called "Finished" in some parts of the country.

Have fun.

Lew

Highly unlikely, though possible. Older GFCIs weren't very good at rejecting stray (capacitive or inductive) current paths. The possibility of false trips with these is high. This is why there were exceptions in the NEC for refrigerators/freezers. Replace the GFCI and see if your problem goes away. If it does, then you had nothing to worry about. ;-)

With a new GFCI, there should be fewer problems. ...and those are serious.

.... hang a picture on the wall & call it "finished " ! Also - I'd check with a real life electrician or Inspector before asking an electrical engineer .. John T.

--- news://freenews.netfront.net/ - complaints: snipped-for-privacy@netfront.net ---

Not true. A finished basement needs gfci too. I had put them in, and when inspected we talked about them, they had to be on each ckt.

You can also buy a GFCI circuit breaker for about $90, or so--which may outweigh installing multiple GFCI duplex outlets--your call. It would depend on how many you have, I guess.

You only need one GFCI up stream from the rest of the outlets - just like a GFCI breaker for the entire circuit. No need for GFCIs on each outlet.

Good point. Thanks!

Each ckt must have one,I have about 10 ckts thats 10 breakers. Would rather use the outlet type, cheap enough to replace.

Make sure you get them in the right way 'round. They don't work well the other way. DAMHIKT. :-(

They also tend to be closer to where you're working, which shouldn't be important but too often is. In a previous house, we had one GFCI breaker for the three bathrooms (and outside outlets). It wasn't very convenient to have to step out of the shower and walk out onto the front porch to reset the GFCI.

Bill Leonhardt wrote in news:83a359b6-fcfb-44f3-8d84- snipped-for-privacy@googlegroups.com:

things heal themselves.) Ran for about 4 minutes and popped the GFCI. Tried a third GFCI circuit and it popped right away.

Obvious conclusion: the problem is not the GFCIs.

that in an un-finished basement used for storage or work, the outlets needed to be protected by a GFCI. I guess all I have to do is finish the basement and I won't need no stinkin' GFCI.

about 10-15 minutes (no load).

check carefully for dust build-up. Also, I want to see if 220VAC is a possibility.

In heaven's name, WHY? Isn't it clear already that the problem is the jointer, not the GFCI?

get on with my life.

Wrong solution. If the trouble persists, you need to find out what's wrong with the jointer before "get on with your life" turns into "abbreviate your life" by electrocution. That GFCI is tripping for a REASON. The reason is that your jointer is leaking current to ground -- which means that its frame is becoming energized. And *that* means that you could receive a fatal shock from touching it.

Bill wrote in news: snipped-for-privacy@news7.newsguy.com:

Risk of shock, potentially fatal. The amount of current which can stop your heart, or send it into atrial fibrillation, is astonishingly low, somewhere on the order of 20 to 50 mA.

Likely answer: "Beats me, I never tried." If you're concerned about it, buy an extension cord with a built-in GFCI (or make one -- I can show you how) and take it with you when you're shopping.

"Lew Hodgett" wrote in news:525eafdf$0$12655$c3e8da3 $ snipped-for-privacy@news.astraweb.com:

WRONG. If the GFCI is tripping because one or the other of the circuit conductors is leaking to ground, rewiring the motor for 240V will do absolutely nothing to change that -- and hence absolutely nothing to alter the existing shock hazard. [...]

He's already tried it with multiple GFCIs with no change in behavior. Why would you think that yet another one would make any difference?

No, it cannot, not in compliance with the National Electrical Code.

One thing I haven't seen is to thouroughly inspect the cord for any potential damage all it takes is a pin hole. Any sign of stress or compression to the cord could have damaged the internal insulation. If the cord cap isn't a molded type inspect it as well. If you have a meter you can check for continuity between ground and either conductor. Since it used to work OK you do have to be concerned with a potential hazard.

Mike M

Doug, You are coming to the party late. This has been discussed all week.

Regardless, Doug is arguably one of the most informed posters here today with regard to electrical code issues, and a good deal of troubleshooting to boot.

Pay attention ... sometimes it is best to let the kibitzing dust settle first. ;)