GFCI Circuit protection question-outdoor wiring

[playintennis5274]

If you didn't already by the wire I would run it in conduit. And for the GFCI question, you can buy GFCI breakers if your coming from the panel.

[chester]

well cant find GFCI breakers for my panel. Looked online and at -some- stomres, although I havent had the opportunity to visit specialty stores. And if I dont need them, I dont want to use them, since they are VERY expensive for a dual 20A GFCI. As far as conduit goes, I have toyed with theidea, but everything else I have read, and everyone I have talked to, says it just isnt necessary. Even the book I have that is all about "above code" just says bury them 2ft insteat of 1ft. Conduit makes it a PITA more than it already is.

[Mark]

use a regular breaker and wire the outside cable via a GCI outlet

My outdoor light is GFCI protected by an outlet in the garage

Mark

[chester]

OK complicasted question, maybe...

I am wiring my (large) shed now, and have decided to do two dedicated circuits.

1 Circuit will be a single 20A/120V for all the outlets and lighting. It will be GFCI-protected at the house-when the wiring exits the house, I simply added an outdoor GFCI outlet, and put the shed load out of this outlet. So all the outlets, and lighting in the shed will run off this circuit. Easy enough...

BUT, I also am wiring 240V out there-for a 240V-2000W in-wall electric heater. I am assuming I need to GFCI-protect this line as well, but maybe I don't. I know the heater itself has a breaker in it (dunno if that is GFCI or not?),but do I need to protect the line from the house (buried 12-24" down in the ground)? I would think I need to, but maybe in-wall heaters do not need to be on GFCI circuits, and/or maybe the buried cable does not need to be protected with GFCI? Thanks for the help c

[Don Young]

[RBM]

I think you are going about the project wrong. All outlets in the shed need to be GFCI protected. There are code issues when running multiple circuits to an out building like disconnects, so probably the most sensible thing to do is install a thirty or forty amp feeder(10/3G) or (8/3G) and small panel in the shed

[gfretwell]

The rule is you can only run one circuit or feeder to a second building. You will either be stuck with a sub panel (ground rods, disconnect etc) or you could run a 20a 240v (3 wire + ground) circuit and split it out into 2 multiwire 120v circuuits that also share the

250v load (hold your nose legal) and use GFCI receptacles in the shed. That will limit you to about 11a per 120v circuit since your heater pulls 8.3. If you just want a light and some occasional power tool use that may be fine. The heater and lights do not need to be GFCI but a direct bury cable would have to be 24" down. Wire in conduit can be 18". 120v 15 or 20a GFCI protected circuits can be 12" down Frost heaving might make all this moot anyway. You might need to be below the frost line. I don't know much about things that happen below freezing.

[chester]

All outlets in the shed WILL be GFCI protected. They will run off the GFCI outlet from the house, which will protect the whole circuit downstream.

[chester]

Yeah well, the heater will be hard-wired in, not on an outlet. I dont think it will sepcificaly require GFCI, but I am not sure. I guess this issue is that accessory structures may be limited in general to one breaker off the main panel, which is the problem now, since I want a

240V heater (not 120) and so need either two lines/breakers, or a sub-panel. I had orignially been considering a subpanel, but was steered away from that idea by some people. I suppose code could be different here (in seattle) but I dont really know. Guess I better check on it.

I guess my choices are

-keep it the same and not worry about it (what is the harm in having two circuits off the main panel?

-change the heater to 120V, deal with smaller heating capacity, and use the two wires I have already started running (they are not underground) to one dual 20A circuit

-change the wiring to 10/3 w/g and run a 30A subpanel, wasting the $44 I spent on 250ft of 12/2 w/g and the time under the house

dunno what sbest

[chester]

Well I am not certain about local codes. I guess I better check. My goal was not to skirt code, but to follow it. as I said in the above psot:

I suppose code could be different here (in seattle) but I dont really know. Guess I better check on it.

I guess my choices are

-keep it the same and not worry about it (what is the harm in having two circuits off the main panel?

-change the heater to 120V, deal with smaller heating capacity, and use the two wires I have already started running (they are not underground) to one dual 20A circuit

-change the wiring to 10/3 w/g and run a 30A subpanel, wasting the $44 I spent on 250ft of 12/2 w/g and the time under the house. However this is definately not a cheaper option than 12/2 with two circuits, even if I hadnt purchased the 12/2 already

or I supppose I could run it as is, and change it ater if needed. I guess i should run conduit so I could pull 10/3 out if I need later

dunno what's best

[RBM]

[RBM]

[SQLit]

I think that this is a mistake. I run some pretty heavy loads in my garage. Sharing the circuitry with god only know what else could cause tripping of the gfci

There are several critical pieces of this puzzle that are not included.

What is the distance to the new loads? My calculations say that your new load (heater) must be less than 145 feet total wire length. Fixed pieces of equipment are not required to be gfci protected. That does not mean that it is not a good idea. Any flammable liquids out in the new area?

Other threads seem to indicate that you already bought the wire. Was the wire UF cable? NM as far as I know is not rated for direct burial.

Not knowing the path of the electrical run and the use of the area. 12 inches could be to shallow. 24 would be fine in all situations.

[chester]

Well, the circuitry to the shed running the outlets and lighting is to be a dedicated 20a/120v circuit. the only other outlet outside the shed on this circuit will be the one outside at the house, which will rarely be in use for anything.

The distance is about 70-80 feet. Ther ewill be no flammable liquids kept in the area. finished shed for storage/excercise, TV etc.

The wire I bought was UF cable 12/2 w/g

I am going for 18-24, with PVC conduit.

Thanks for you input/questions. I was concerned with the two separate circuits, but I found NEC code online, and found there are exceptions to the rule of one circuit (including multi-branch) to an external structure. One exception is when different voltages are supplied with the two lines. This appears to apply to my situation. i feel a whole lot more comfortable with two circuits, than running one multi-brnach circuit with a 240V and 120V running off of it.

[gk]

I appreciate the input. I admit I didnt know about this rule. You got me stressd out a bit, so I actually found the NEC online. It doesn't let you cut and paste, but basically, rule 225.30 states that there is only to be one feeder or brnach circuit to each structure on a property, "unless permitted in 225.30(A)though(E). Subsection (D) states that "Additional feeders or branch circuits shall be permitted for different voltages, frequencies, or pahses or for different uses such as control of outside lighting from multiple locations."

This would seem to apply to me, since I need 120V and 240V. I feel much more comfortable using two feeder circuits for my applications than using a multiwire branch circuit and running 120V and 240V off that same circuit, as you mentioned (I didnt know this was possible, but I guess it is always an option). Thanks.

[gk]

So is it legit to run a multiwire off of dual 20A, and run the outlets off of hot neutral, and run the 240V off of both hots? I mean, I can do that easily, with the current wiring. I just would think two circuits would be better/safer. But obviouosly NEC has its reasons. However, I cant help but wonder why there would be exceptions for higher voltage but not 120 and 240 circuits. For that You would have to turn off two circuits as well. ?

[Don Young]

[gfretwell]

210.8(A) Dwelling Units. All 125-volt, single-phase, 15- and 20-ampere receptacles installed in the locations specified in (1) through (8) shall have ground-fault circuit-interrupter protection for personnel.

Note "125v 15 and 20a receptacles".

[gk]

So I just want to be clear: I can use the two hots from a (20A 3 conductor w/g) multiwire circuit to run the 240V heater, and one of the hots, and the neutral, to run the 120V. True? If this is safe, and legal, I will just do this. I dont expect to be having any high draw devices in the shed, except for an occasional power tool. Thanks for you help and advice.

[gfretwell]

You are right but I would not consider it the most dangerous thing in the world.