What's this about Norm Retiring.

[Doug Miller]

No, Charlie, the bullshit is entirely on your part. The downfall of the Soviet Union was indeed written in its economic and political models, but very few politicians in the United States actually realized that. For the most part, political leaders of both parties accepted the existence of the Soviet Union as a given, and were resigned to the continuation of the Cold War for the indefinite future. Almost alone among American political leaders, Reagan knew that the inherent weaknesses of the Soviet system ensured its collapse if only it were pushed hard enough, and he knew how and where to push. Even the Russians acknowledge that:

``Reagan bolstered the U.S. military might to ruin the Soviet economy, and he achieved his goal,'' said Gennady Gerasimov, who was the top spokesman for the Soviet Foreign Ministry during the 1980s.

[ ]

-- Regards, Doug Miller (alphageek-at-milmac-dot-com)

Get a copy of my NEW AND IMPROVED TrollFilter for NewsProxy/Nfilter by sending email to autoresponder at filterinfo-at-milmac-dot-com You must use your REAL email address to get a response.

[Gary]

Charlie, Charlie, Charlie. You're in denial. It happened, and the events of the day were significantly influenced by the sitting American leadership, as they always are. I admit, I was sort of kidding about defeating Communism, although befriending Gorbachev and wife certainly had some impact on the outcome.

"almost annihilated" When did you learn of things such as civil defense, bomb shelters advertised on the front of public buildings, home fallout shelters, nuclear attack drills for school children? I'd say that's when we're about as close to face annihilation as anytime in the history of this country. Present time included.

[LRod]

Gary, Gary, Gary. All that happened in the '50s. Once I started high school in 1960, I never saw a nuclear attack drill and the home fallout shelter boom had pretty much subsided by that time. Let's see, who was president from 1953 to 1961? Not JFK.

- - LRod

Master Woodbutcher and seasoned termite

Shamelessly whoring my website since 1999

[Charlie Self]

A fact, a fact, a kingdom, more or less, for a fact. "It happened" says almost what Doug said a psot earlier. Nothing.

When did I learn of such things? Early '50s. Late '40s. What was JFK doing then? Recovering from back problems caused by PT 109 and getting ready for politics. He wasn't getting us almost annihilated. Just because Civil Defense was still touted in '60 doesn't put the cause in JFK's pocket. It was a decade or 2 old by then, as a result of a lot of intrigue over atomic secrets and a lot of residual fright over WWII. You want to blame Ike? More went on under his adminstration than under JFK's. Maybe we can go back to Truman, under whose admin most of it began?

Do you recall the atomic clock? How many minutes we were from midnight. Do you think that came on board during JFK's watch?

Read back a few years. You may have lived it, but it sounds like you were too young to pay attention.

Charlie Self "It is even harder for the average ape to believe that he has descended from man." H. L. Mencken

[Gary]

"Testing the mettle of the new and youthful President John F. Kennedy, Soviet Premier Nikita Krushschev demanded that NATO troops leave Berlin, emphasizing his point with a scary shoe-banging tantrum at the United Nations. Kennedy recommended a course of action to his fellow Americans. "A fallout shelter for everybody," he said, "as rapidly as possible." Calling Berlin "the great testing place of Western courage and will," Kennedy promised to let every citizen know what steps he could take without delay to protect his family in case of attack. The Russians ended a three-year moratorium on nuclear testing with a blast over central Russia and warned the west that "It would take really very few multimegaton nuclear bombs to wipe out your small and densely populated countries and kill you instantly in your lairs." A year later, the Cuban Missile Crisis would shove the world to the brink for 13 agonizing days. Newspaper headlines blared warnings of impending annihilation. "Highest Urgency, Kennedy Reports," "Invasion Possible, Air, Sea and Ground Forces Ordered Out for Maneuvers," they cried."

That's the way I remember it.

[Gary]

the 50's but I remember the threat being at its highest in 1963. as

puts it:

"Testing the mettle of the new and youthful President John F. Kennedy, Soviet Premier Nikita Krushschev demanded that NATO troops leave Berlin, emphasizing his point with a scary shoe-banging tantrum at the United Nations. Kennedy recommended a course of action to his fellow Americans. "A fallout shelter for everybody," he said, "as rapidly as possible." Calling Berlin "the great testing place of Western courage and will," Kennedy promised to let every citizen know what steps he could take without delay to protect his family in case of attack. The Russians ended a three-year moratorium on nuclear testing with a blast over central Russia and warned the west that "It would take really very few multimegaton nuclear bombs to wipe out your small and densely populated countries and kill you instantly in your lairs." A year later, the Cuban Missile Crisis would shove the world to the brink for 13 agonizing days. Newspaper headlines blared warnings of impending annihilation. "Highest Urgency, Kennedy Reports," "Invasion Possible, Air, Sea and Ground Forces Ordered Out for Maneuvers," they cried."

That's the way I remember it.

Correction, Make that October 1962.

[George]

Rather neat book called _One Hell of a Gamble_ written on the crisis, Gives a look at what the Soviet archives have to say. Kennedy was viewed as a mental lightweight by the Soviets, so it surprised the hell out of them when he put up versus shut up. Fortunately, Ike hadn't resisted the military industrial complex too much, and we had the big stick to brandish, even though we didn't realize how big it really was by comparison.

As to assertions that Khrushchev was an empty blusterer, remember, he had the courage to call Stalin a murderer in '56, with only a few of the top Stalinists in their premature graves at the time. He looked like a buffoon - wouldn't have survived in Stalin's USSR if he hadn't, but he was a crafty bugger.

One the Soviets respected was former VP Nixon of "kitchen debate" fame. Years later, Soviets (and former Soviets with whom I worked, and who had lived through those days, mentioned Nixon with the same degree of respect they used when they mentioned Regan. You don't want to know what they thought of Jimmy.

The Communists did not fail, they succeeded. Everyone had a job, a dwelling, medical care, education and pension. Problem was, there were no "rich" to tax to pay for all of that, only a self-styled elite who "knew and served the best interests of the working man," (Trotsky) and they were as unwilling to work for no gain as everyone else.

The system died when people ceased to believe in a better future.

[Charlie Self]

And Nikita's shoe-banging, of course, was the Democrat's fault. Blame it on JFK.

Ah, yes. The liberal press. You neocons dislike the press so much, I'm surprised you'll even quote from anything but Fox and Limbaugh.

Thirteen whole days, while Krushchev really had no intention of invading, and Kennedy was reasonably sure of that. He had no real choice, anyway, but to call the bluff.

Amazing. Newspaper warnings of impending annihilation and that's you're grounds for saying we were nearer annihilation at that point than at any other? Maybe so, in your opinion and in the opinion of some newspapers. Historically, one has to wonder.

Charlie Self "It is even harder for the average ape to believe that he has descended from man." H. L. Mencken

[J. Clarke]

FWIW, the Bulletin of the Atomic Scientists (whose staff has a remarkable paucity of atomic scientists by the way) set the Doomsday Clock back to 12 minutes to midnight in 1963, from the 7 that it had been earlier. The farthest it has ever been from midnight is seventeen minutes to midnight in

1991, and the closest two in 1953. If those professional Chicken Littles thought that things improved in 1963 then there's little support for the contention that there was "'that's when we're about as close to face annihilation as anytime in the history of this country".

[Gary]

Ah yes, in 1963 it was moved back to 12 minutes to midnight. But immediately prior to that it had been 7 minutes to midnight ever since 1960 (3 years) and 2 minutes to midnight from 1953 to 1960.

1953 | Two minutes to midnight The United States and the Soviet Union test thermonuclear devices within nine months of one another. 1960 | Seven minutes to midnight The clock moves in response to the growing public understanding that nuclear weapons made war between the major powers irrational. International scientific cooperation and efforts to aid poor nations are cited. 1963 | Twelve minutes to midnight The U.S. and Soviet signing of the Partial Test Ban Treaty "provides the first tangible confirmation of what has been the Bulletin's conviction in recent years-that a new cohesive force has entered the interplay of forces shaping the fate of mankind."

thing I do know, I as 13 year old in October 1962, was scared shitless thinking the world was coming to an end any day. So were a heck of a lot of other Americans.

[LRod]

but I remember the threat being at its highest in 1963. as

puts it:

Premier Nikita Krushschev demanded that NATO troops leave Berlin, emphasizing his point with a scary shoe-banging tantrum at the United Nations.

shelter for everybody," he said, "as rapidly as possible." Calling Berlin "the great testing place of Western courage and will," Kennedy promised to let every citizen know what steps he could take without delay to protect his family in case of attack.

over central Russia and warned the west that "It would take really very few multimegaton nuclear bombs to wipe out your small and densely populated countries and kill you instantly in your lairs."

13 agonizing days. Newspaper headlines blared warnings of impending annihilation. "Highest Urgency, Kennedy Reports," "Invasion Possible, Air, Sea and Ground Forces Ordered Out for Maneuvers," they cried."

That's the way I remember it, too, except for the year. But what you said was:

Yes, the Cuban Missile Crisis happened in 1962 (not '63, as you imply), but all the other stuff you mention (and, by the way, is confirmed in the link YOU provided; did you read it?), was mostly the '50s.

- - LRod

Master Woodbutcher and seasoned termite

Shamelessly whoring my website since 1999

[J. Clarke]

Three (Bronx) cheers for the Press. Anything to stir up a crisis and sell newspapers. My Dad was in command of a naval base in Florida at the time, and he wasn't particularly worried. Simple fact is that Kruschev was just finding out how much he could get away with and nobody who had a clue what was going on thought that he was going to start a nuclear war over it.

[Charlie Self]

Gary responds:

Some others. I was a 23 old former Marine who was pissed that he might have to go back on active duty because the Commies were saber rattling again. Whoops. Sorry. I turned 24 just before that.

I have a feeling my overall impressions may be a tad more accurate than those of a 13 year old, but maybe you were an exceptional 13 year old.

Charlie Self "It is even harder for the average ape to believe that he has descended from man." H. L. Mencken

[charlie b]

I have a feeling that your father was a vert disciplined militarty man and didn't let you in on how tense things were "at work". During that almost two week period there were U-2 planes taking off and landing at Albrook Air Force Base in the Canal Zone (Panama Canal that is) - several times a day. I know because they came over Balboa High School at less than 300 feet and even closer if you were at the football/baseball practice field near the end of the runway. Quarry Heights, the HQ of USARCARIB, had more general per square yard than the Pentagon and I went to school with several of their sons and daughters. THEY were "concerned", and not because any yellow journalism was "stirring things up" - the english radio and TV were controlled by the US government - AFRTS - Armed Forces Radio and Television Service.

Living within a mile of what was surely a primary target for nuclear missiles made the tension of those days palpable.

That's my perspective of the Cuban Missile Crisis.

There have been several documentaries done recently (in the last 2-3 years) that interviewed high ranking officials in both the Kennedy AND Kruschev administrations as well as high ranking military men from both sides directly involved in the crisis. They all described how frighteningly close we came to a large "nuclear exchange" and how easily it could have gone that way. It wasn't media hype - we in fact nearly went MAD - Mutually Assured Destruction - the ultimate national security policy that both sides believed in.

charlie b

[Doug Winterburn]

Thank you, Charlie, for stating what I remember and countering the revisionists around here.

-Doug

[patriarch]

"George" wrote in news:40e43f9f [e-mail]:

Companies and countries almost always die, when people cease to believe in a better future. Hope, and faith, are primary motivating factors in almost all human endeavor. Or so it seems from here.

Patriarch, cross posted to rec.woodworking.philosophy

[Fly-by-Night CC]

Gary, Gary, Gary (a little tardy but I'll be damned if I'm gonna forfeit my turn) - You credit Reagan with his stance against the Soviets and criticize JFK for the closeness he took us to "annhilation." If you look at The Bulletin of Atomic Scientists link you posted of the Doomsday Clock you'll see that during Reagan's terms we were the closest to midnight of any time period since 1953. And at that, '53 was two minutes to twelve whereas '84 brought us three minutes to twelve. The closest the '60's got was 7 minutes - which is equivalent to where the clock is set today.

[Fred the Red Shirt]

Uh, the invasion referred to in "Invasion Possible" above was the US invading Cuba, not the Krushchev invading anywhere.

[Charlie Self]

Fredfigher notes:

WTF? Who said anything about the big K invading? The deal with him, and with the USSR generally, was not invasion (until about the '80s when everyone went ape over tank warfare in Yurp). It was missiles and the worry that someone there was crazy enough to push the button--before someone here was crazy enough to push the button.

I don't know if there were plans to invade Cuba--and I doubt if anyone else on here really does--but it might have been a semi-sane reaction to Russian missiles in the Cuban mountains. Fortunately, Krushchev didn't push matters that far.

Charlie Self "It is even harder for the average ape to believe that he has descended from man." H. L. Mencken

[George]

Only thing that trumps an empty stomach.

"patriarch [e-mail]" "George" wrote in news:40e43f9f [e-mail]: