On Sep 30, 2:29 am, firstname.lastname@example.org wrote:
No luck with NIST ;-) Well, I can measure to within a millionth of an
inch (with some uncertainty) so that would be pretty darn small
Yes, I know that "gnat's ass" is slang. People use it to describe
something that is extremely small and insignificant. It's hyperbole
(an obvious and intentional exaggeration). People use hyperbole to
illustrate something that is ridiculous (causing or worthy of ridicule
or derision; absurd; preposterous; laughable). To characterize Dan's
desire to align his saw as the persuit of "thousandths of a gnat's
ass" just emphasizes the ridiculous nature of the task. It's
hyperbole on top of hyperbole.
I don't think that 0.016" of misalignment is absurd, preposterous,
laughable, or worthy of ridicule. It's hard for me to understand such
a characterization as anything other than derogatory (tending to
lessen the merit or reputation of a person or thing; disparaging;
depreciatory). But, that's just me. Others may not feel the same
way. It depends on their point of view and the effects that it has on
the individual. Nobody likes to have their profession characterized
in such a way.
I can understand jokes and how people poke fun at eachother in a light
hearted way. Sometimes it's not appreciated. Maybe it strikes a
chord or pushes a button that is particularly sensitive. Maybe it
even has tangible consequences that can affect a person's livelihood.
The proper thing to do is make a private appeal for the "humor" to
cease. When presented with such an appeal, most of us will recognize
the unintended consequences and back off. Some may even feel
compelled to offer an apology. The really rare individual might even
make the apology public so that everyone would understand that no harm
was intended. This is how people manage misunderstandings in polite
A person who cannot recognize any potential for offense, denies the
appeal and places the blame on the offended with further jabs ("you're
obtuse", "wrong headed", "have no sense of humor", etc.) is being
particularly callous (insensitive; indifferent; unsympathetic). If
they step up the public activity with deliberately embarrassing jabs
then they shouldn't be too surpirsed when the offended begins to take
overt actions to remedy the situation (limit the damage). If they are
lucky, they will receive yet another private appeal with very strong
and direct language with exact specifics and blunt descriptions of the
offending behavior, it's consequences, and how it is being
interpreted. To deny the appeal at this level and counter with
maliciously embarrassing public jabs truely places one in the category
of "asshole". At this point, it is clear that no reason or appeal can
be used to remedy the situation. It is, by definition, beyond all
Home of the TS-Aligner
Bullshit, all around ... what folks need to know is that the real
"mocking"/"ranting and raving" and "antagonism" is your vile, unsolicited
e-mail backed up on my hard drive.
it's real, it's provable, and it's disturbing.
It's also damn sad.
This just isn't the direction you want to go Karl. Don't take my word
for it, please ask someone else. Frank, for example, can tell you
exactly why this isn't a good idea.
Please re-consider the jokes, jabs, and fun that you have been having
at my expense and think about choosing a different course of action.
It would be better for everyone all around.
Home of the TS-Aligner
I agree, Ed ... all things considered, it would certainly be much better for
_you_. AAMOF, I hereby suggest (not threaten as you attempt to do above)
that _you_ drop the whole thing.
You're simply worth no further consideration on my part. I fully expect
you'll continue along the same line, but EOT, as far as my participation.
Not a threat, just a warning. Kind of like the label on ladders that
says "Do not stand at or above this step". It's just not safe or
stable. There could be unforseen consequences that everyone would
I have read through this entire thread and come away with this
conclusion: You guys have way, WAY too much time on your hands and
have no shame about how far you will push an issue. You sound like an
angry 90 year old couple. It's a wonder any one of you make a living
because it appears that you spend most of your time typing and
thinking up "the perfect reply". Ed; you really don't have to reply to
every negative comment. It makes you look bad. Swingman; stop picking
on someone just because you know he will argue with you. He makes a
good product and you know it. Find something more constructive to do
rather than tormenting Ed.
While I agree with the later half, I vehemently disagree with the first
Contrary to what Ed has decided as my take on his product is, it is an
_excellent_ product, something every serious woodworker will find of great
value and, as such, has always deserved as much publicity amongst the
woodworking community as possible.
To suggest otherwise would be a loss to the woodworking community
Despite our differences of opinion, this is simple fact ... I've said the
same to Ed, on posts here on the wRec, and on my website.
All of this sound very ominous to me.
If I was a business owner, I'd be very careful of how I come across to my
potential customers. Being argumentative, cantankerous, or anything like
that can cost customers or distributors.
But what do I know? I'm just an uninterested observer.
Recognizing the futility of continuing, I'll ignore all below, let
those who are following this thread decide for themself. Hopefully you
will also grant each of them the right to believe whatever they like.
But in this case you have specifically accused me of "questioning
Dan's ability to make friends". I did nothing of the kind. I don't
know where you got that but I think since it is a specific accusation
that you should either apologise or offer corroborating evidence.
Please cut and paste the information from any post where I said
anything directly related to that accusation or any other personal
derogatory remarks regarding the OP.
Sorry Frank, it looks like I made a mistake and owe you an apology.
Here's the message that I was thinking of:
I had you confused with another Frank and it was an injustice to
attribute that statement to you. I hope you can forgive me. And, I
hope that anybody else who might have been misled by my mistake will
see this and not allow my blunder to change their opinion of you.
There have also been a number of occasions where I interpreted your
statements as more antagonistic than they may have been intended
because you and swingman were arguing the same point of view ("ignore
the problem and just make sawdust"). In the absence of swingman's
derogatory remarks I may not have taken them the same way. So, I
apologize for this as well.
I'm still wondering if you think Dan was wasting his time to align his
saw. Is it better for him to live with the problem (rework all his
bevel cuts) or invest the time up front to eliminate the problem once
and for all?
Home of the TS-Aligner.com
I didn't find those comments offensive, but opinions must vary,
depending on one's point of view.
It's not a waste of time for him if he wants alignment more precise
than what he had. My position is that the rework that he anticpates
is not what I would have expected with those original readings. He
said he experienced a bad fit while using the saw prior to realigning
it. I never questioned that nor commented on it, but was surprised by
it. I'm glad you were able to help him. Sounds like he had a simple
case of a cabinet top plate plane or a table boss plane that was not
perfectly (and there is no such thing except randomly) parallel to the
table top. But I would bet that it was within both Powermatics
specifications and the natural statistical process capability range
for the process. And, as originally stated, I expect that the feature
reading (45) was also.
Two things can happen when you have bad blade alignment. The work can
pinch between the fence and the blade resulting in a burned edge. Or,
the work can wander away from the fence during the cut resulting in an
inaccurate cut. When using a miter gauge, the work has a tendency to
slide to one side or the other. It all depends on which direction the
misalignment takes. If you prevent the wandering with clamps (miter
gauge) or feather boards (fence) you end up with a burned edge (and a
wider kerf if you follow all the way through).
The same things happen when the blade is tilted. However, the
wandering or pinching isn't just horizontal, it will also have a
vertical component. Most people notice the horizontal wandering but
don't catch the vertical.
There are wide specs and large variability. I don't know what the PM
specs are but I suspect that you are right. I've had a lot of
customers complain about interactions with woodworking machinery
manufacturers. Most of these companies just don't think that their
customers will ever notice or care. And, since the market is so price
competitive, they're not to keen on making an investment in this
area. I've talked with Manufacturing Engineers at Delta (about 12
years ago). They have jigs like mine that they use internally for
audit checks (sold a Sr. and associated accessories to their facility
in Pittsburgh) but it's not 100% inspection. They just want to make
sure that their process is still in control.
Home of the TS-Aligner
The individuals in Pittsburgh had nothing to do with the quality
inspection of my product. They were dealing with far eastern
imports. I did do 100% inspection of the features in questions in
addition to various statistical methods. Please don't blend the two
together if you don't know what you are talking about. That
(confusion of the source) has already pretty much destroyed the
quality image of the brand. That's all I have to say about that.
You are right, I really don't know anything about what Delta does in
Pittsburgh. I just know what they told me. I thought it was a bit
strange that they only needed one Aligner to support their entire
production line. They explained that the Aligner would only be used
for occasional audits. I tried to convince them that every service
center needed one. Didn't work. :-(
Home of the TS-Aligner
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