Trouble setting up new table saw

[Ed Bennett]

The analogy is really aimed and encouraging people to examine the facts and use their intelligence to judge the merits of proper alignment. It was also intended to discourage people from ignoring the facts, dispensing with their intellect and arguing "just make sawdust". I thought it was a particularly keen analogy to answer swingman's accusation that I was being pious and holier than thou. That was it's primary purpose.

However, I don't mind attributing the role of Galileo with those who believe that they can improve the performance of their machinery (and subsequently the quality of their woodworking) with proper alignment. I wouldn't want to have the role of the Roman authorities attributed to me. I wouldn't want to be in the position of ridiculing and persecuting the modern Galileos. So, I think each person needs to examine their own attitude and determine if they like the role that they have chosen to play.

That said...With regard to your own saw of 13 years, you said: "I never checked the saw for alignment that [first] day or ever." You also indicate that you believe that precise alignment is a waste of time. In your recommendation to Dan, you said "...if it were mine and I were within .016" with a dead on 90, I'd lock it down and cut wood." (although I can't seem to get you to now say if you think it was a waste of time for Dan to get this resolved). You include yourself in the group of those who think that alignment is unimportant. But, since you don't actually know the current state of your machine (aligned or misaligned) I don't understand how you can be so confident in your assertion. Maybe your saw is (by sheer luck) well aligned. Maybe it isn't and you just don't recognize the problems.

I don't doubt that you want to know which part I think you play in the analogy. I could tell you what I think based on the evidence I've seen (reviewed above for your convenience). But, this really is a question that you need to answer for yourself. You need to play the part that you believe is right, argue it's merits, and hope that time doesn't treat you as badly as it did the Roman authorities. It's not for me to tell you which role to play. I recognize that the Galileo role is a lonely one with many trials and tribulations ;-). But, I choose it and argue it's merits becaue I believe that it is right. By contrast, the Roman role is grounded in piety ("we're not wood machinists") and enjoys relative ease in the consensus of many.

Ed Bennett [e-mail]

of the TS-Aligner

[Ed Bennett]

Unfortunately I don't have any instruments calibrated in gnat's asses (or even thousandths of a gnat's ass). I'll check the NIST web site to see if they list the conversion factor between inches and gnat's asses. I'm sure that they maintain a standard gnat's ass from which all certified instruments can trace their calibration. ;-)

Seriously, swingman was making fun of (mocking) Dan's efforts to eliminate 0.016" of alignment error. That's about 1/64" for those not conversant in thousandths (and one hell of a big gnatt if this is equivalent to one thousandth of it's ass!). It's about three times the ammount that matters (0.005"). It certainly affects accuracy and borders on dangerous (i.e. kickback). It's an easy thing to fix. I just can't imagine why it has caused so much antagonism.

Ed Bennett [e-mail]

of the TS-Aligner

[Ed Bennett]

Two things can happen when you have bad blade alignment. The work can pinch between the fence and the blade resulting in a burned edge. Or, the work can wander away from the fence during the cut resulting in an inaccurate cut. When using a miter gauge, the work has a tendency to slide to one side or the other. It all depends on which direction the misalignment takes. If you prevent the wandering with clamps (miter gauge) or feather boards (fence) you end up with a burned edge (and a wider kerf if you follow all the way through).

The same things happen when the blade is tilted. However, the wandering or pinching isn't just horizontal, it will also have a vertical component. Most people notice the horizontal wandering but don't catch the vertical.

There are wide specs and large variability. I don't know what the PM specs are but I suspect that you are right. I've had a lot of customers complain about interactions with woodworking machinery manufacturers. Most of these companies just don't think that their customers will ever notice or care. And, since the market is so price competitive, they're not to keen on making an investment in this area. I've talked with Manufacturing Engineers at Delta (about 12 years ago). They have jigs like mine that they use internally for audit checks (sold a Sr. and associated accessories to their facility in Pittsburgh) but it's not 100% inspection. They just want to make sure that their process is still in control.

Ed Bennett [e-mail]

of the TS-Aligner

[Maxwell Lol]

Well, *you* said it was "the sort of derogatory comment."

I'm just pointing out that it is not. It's slang.

[Frank Boettcher]

The individuals in Pittsburgh had nothing to do with the quality inspection of my product. They were dealing with far eastern imports. I did do 100% inspection of the features in questions in addition to various statistical methods. Please don't blend the two together if you don't know what you are talking about. That (confusion of the source) has already pretty much destroyed the quality image of the brand. That's all I have to say about that.

[Ed Bennett]

You are right, I really don't know anything about what Delta does in Pittsburgh. I just know what they told me. I thought it was a bit strange that they only needed one Aligner to support their entire production line. They explained that the Aligner would only be used for occasional audits. I tried to convince them that every service center needed one. Didn't work. :-(

Ed Bennett [e-mail]

of the TS-Aligner

[bridgerfafc]

a gnat's ass is a unit of measurement approximately one order of magnitude smaller than that offered by the most accurate instrument in your shop... which in your case makes it pretty damn thin.....

[Swingman]

Bullshit, all around ... what folks need to know is that the real "mocking"/"ranting and raving" and "antagonism" is your vile, unsolicited e-mail backed up on my hard drive.

it's real, it's provable, and it's disturbing.

It's also damn sad.

[Ed Bennett]

No luck with NIST ;-) Well, I can measure to within a millionth of an inch (with some uncertainty) so that would be pretty darn small indeed!

Yes, I know that "gnat's ass" is slang. People use it to describe something that is extremely small and insignificant. It's hyperbole (an obvious and intentional exaggeration). People use hyperbole to illustrate something that is ridiculous (causing or worthy of ridicule or derision; absurd; preposterous; laughable). To characterize Dan's desire to align his saw as the persuit of "thousandths of a gnat's ass" just emphasizes the ridiculous nature of the task. It's hyperbole on top of hyperbole.

I don't think that 0.016" of misalignment is absurd, preposterous, laughable, or worthy of ridicule. It's hard for me to understand such a characterization as anything other than derogatory (tending to lessen the merit or reputation of a person or thing; disparaging; depreciatory). But, that's just me. Others may not feel the same way. It depends on their point of view and the effects that it has on the individual. Nobody likes to have their profession characterized in such a way.

I can understand jokes and how people poke fun at eachother in a light hearted way. Sometimes it's not appreciated. Maybe it strikes a chord or pushes a button that is particularly sensitive. Maybe it even has tangible consequences that can affect a person's livelihood. The proper thing to do is make a private appeal for the "humor" to cease. When presented with such an appeal, most of us will recognize the unintended consequences and back off. Some may even feel compelled to offer an apology. The really rare individual might even make the apology public so that everyone would understand that no harm was intended. This is how people manage misunderstandings in polite society.

A person who cannot recognize any potential for offense, denies the appeal and places the blame on the offended with further jabs ("you're obtuse", "wrong headed", "have no sense of humor", etc.) is being particularly callous (insensitive; indifferent; unsympathetic). If they step up the public activity with deliberately embarrassing jabs then they shouldn't be too surpirsed when the offended begins to take overt actions to remedy the situation (limit the damage). If they are lucky, they will receive yet another private appeal with very strong and direct language with exact specifics and blunt descriptions of the offending behavior, it's consequences, and how it is being interpreted. To deny the appeal at this level and counter with maliciously embarrassing public jabs truely places one in the category of "asshole". At this point, it is clear that no reason or appeal can be used to remedy the situation. It is, by definition, beyond all reason.

Ed Bennett [e-mail]

of the TS-Aligner

[Ed Bennett]

This just isn't the direction you want to go Karl. Don't take my word for it, please ask someone else. Frank, for example, can tell you exactly why this isn't a good idea.

Please re-consider the jokes, jabs, and fun that you have been having at my expense and think about choosing a different course of action. It would be better for everyone all around.

Ed Bennett [e-mail]

of the TS-Aligner

[Swingman]

I agree, Ed ... all things considered, it would certainly be much better for _you_. AAMOF, I hereby suggest (not threaten as you attempt to do above) that _you_ drop the whole thing.

You're simply worth no further consideration on my part. I fully expect you'll continue along the same line, but EOT, as far as my participation.

[Swingman]

"FrozenNorth" wrote

While I agree with the later half, I vehemently disagree with the first premise above

Contrary to what Ed has decided as my take on his product is, it is an _excellent_ product, something every serious woodworker will find of great value and, as such, has always deserved as much publicity amongst the woodworking community as possible.

To suggest otherwise would be a loss to the woodworking community hereabouts.

Despite our differences of opinion, this is simple fact ... I've said the same to Ed, on posts here on the wRec, and on my website.

[Swingman]

Unfortunately, we almost all take a turn in that barrell at some point or other. :)

Same to you.

[B A R R Y]

Unless you're the gnat.

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[Edwin Pawlowski]

All of this sound very ominous to me.

If I was a business owner, I'd be very careful of how I come across to my potential customers. Being argumentative, cantankerous, or anything like that can cost customers or distributors.

But what do I know? I'm just an uninterested observer.

[Ed Bennett]

Not a threat, just a warning. Kind of like the label on ladders that says "Do not stand at or above this step". It's just not safe or stable. There could be unforseen consequences that everyone would regret.

[shinola9]

I have read through this entire thread and come away with this conclusion: You guys have way, WAY too much time on your hands and have no shame about how far you will push an issue. You sound like an angry 90 year old couple. It's a wonder any one of you make a living because it appears that you spend most of your time typing and thinking up "the perfect reply". Ed; you really don't have to reply to every negative comment. It makes you look bad. Swingman; stop picking on someone just because you know he will argue with you. He makes a good product and you know it. Find something more constructive to do rather than tormenting Ed.

Chuck