Tim Daneluk

[Enoch Root]

I should hope not. :) Neither would I. But there was one surrounding the ID "movement". That's what I was referring to, and I was hoping you could tell me what you know about it and how you dealt with it when you made your decision.

But it is when you set it up as an alternative to a theory to be taught in schools... science has as a practical goal to explain the nature of the universe, but if the questions being asked don't lead to more understanding then what is the merit? It isn't the intention to deny you a spiritual worldview when these limitations are placed on science: for that you have other disciplines.

That's true, but the theories of the past have always 1) had as a goal to explain the universe 2) provide a framework to test its validity, 3) were modified when they weren't found to be in accord with the world, and 4) competed with other theories on even footing.

This isn't true of ID: it doesn't have to explain the world beyond pointing a finger at an invisible and unknowable builder to explain all unknown phenomena, and is being injected into the educational system by political means, not through scientific testing.

It's not fair or rational to ask that the ToE be able to explain the origins of life. There will always be too many, that's why you have to break it down into manageable chunks.

That sounds a lot like a surrender, if you don't mind my saying.

The motive of the ID proponents that began the whole Dover scandal. Have you read about what they've done?

The evolutionists only ask that ID, if it is to be regarded as a theory of Science, also be required to follow the same rules as science. There is no Inquisition. It is in fact the IDers that are using cynical political manipulations to inject their ideology into the school system. I think it is also possible they are being aided by nihilcons, as well.

Conjecture is a different thing entirely. Creation is the crux of the ID movement, though, that is true. Unfortunately, the IDers are waging war for their creationism against an evolution that has nothing to do with creation.

Thank goodness science is not political! (well, but it is in an entirely irrelevant academic way... but I digress:) Consensus in science is the crucible for all new theories... take it as a good, and if there is any validity to ID, test it against that. If it's a good theory...

If you love science, why would you allow ID to be elevated as a theory through political pressure and not require that it survive the same critique required of scientific theories?

er

[Odinn]

I don't have to explain how anything exists at all. It doesn't matter how it came into existence, nor does it matter if it has always existed, it exists at the present. It's simple for me. I don't need some sort of creator for the universe to exist, it simply exists. I don't need some sort of mysticism to make my life meaningful.

[fredfighter]

I think you asked "What motive?"

I think I answered accurately and succintly.

I don't know if you are pissed off to learn that there IS a prominant organization with an apparent motive of the sort alluded to, or if you are pissed off that the information is freely available. Personally, I think you should be pissed off at the way they've been manipulating you.

I am not aware of any 'evolutionist' who is afraid of free discussion of the information.

Any number of people capable of debating the issues decline to do so for a number of reasons. Some of them simply have better things to do. Others decline for the same reasons that the American Cancer Society quit debating the tobacco companies.

Plainly if you are interested in a healthy debate you'll post over on talk.origins, where the issue is on-topic and will attract the attention of people competent and willing to debate it.

OTOH, if you are afraid of a healthy debate, you will not.

[Dave Balderstone]

Try going back and read what I wrote.

[Enoch Root]

Considering how difficult it can be to "buy local" I would be very hesitant to call any expressed desire to do so huff and puff.

Hard work, that's what I call it. But persevere!

er

[Dave Balderstone]

And, in fact, I did not express any indication that I support buying local or do not support buying local, so I don't understand how or why Mr. Barta would use his points in an argument against what I actually said.

djb

[Joe Barta]

It would seem you are correct. I jumped to an erroneous conclusion.

A thousand apologies.

For the record, if I may ask you a pointed question, do you often and with a clean concience buy goods that you know to be made in China?

Joe Barta

[Dave Balderstone]

I do not buy goods that I know to be made in China.

I also choose, when I can reasonably do so, not to buy US made goods, but not in all consumer categories.

[Joe Barta]

I have a few more questions for you if you're willing...

What about goods that are "made" in a favorable country, but are very likely to have major parts made in China? (I'm speaking of products that may not be explicitly labeled as such, but you highly suspect that it's at least partly made in China.)

What about goods that are made in a favorable country, but made with tooling that was mostly made in China?

Would you shop at a store whose success is largely due to cheap Chinese imports, even if the particular item you are purchasing happens to be made in a favorable country?

Do you use specific criteria when determining from which countries you will buy goods or is more of an informal "from the hip" decision?

Besides China and the US, are there any other countries you do not buy goods from? If you have reasons, I would be interested to hear them.

Joe Barta

[Charles Self]

I'm still trying to figure out how the Chinese can buy wood from us--trees--and turn it into plywood that sells for about 2/3 the price of US or Canada made plywood. Double shipping has to add up, regardless of low cost labor, and a lot of plywood manufacturing costs are in the equipment.

[Charles Self]

Yabbut. T'other day, I checked out the new prescrip ortho shoes I got from VA. Made In China right on the inside of the tongue.

Tell me how I avoid that one.

[Dave Balderstone]

Why should I tell you how to do that? You make your own choices, I make mine.

[Dave Balderstone]

Sigh...

I've answered this already.

I've answered this already.

I'm not aware of such a store in my market area.

Yes, I use specific criteria.

Yes.

I'm sure you would be.

[Charles Self]

Prescrip shoes available from ONE source. I can go back to regular shoes and not be able to walk more than 15 feet, or I can go through the entire routine with civilian doctors at a cost of maybe $1500.

That's not a choice.

[Dave Balderstone]

I'm not in your shoes, am I? I certainly wouldn't presume to tell you what decision to make.

[Tim Daneliuk]

"Better" is one where:

1) Parents are expected to care for their own children. 2) Parents are more directly involved with the content and quality of their childrens' education. 3) The knowledge base, analytical skills, and self-learning habits of the students are increased (compared to today). 4) Teachers are compensated according to ability and their work product not treated like hourly factory workers. Good teachers prosper bad ones get fired. 5) Schools have the ability to maintain an environment of learning not be a dumping ground for parents to abdicate their own responsibilities. 6) Government presence in the private lives of its citizens is reduced. 7) Wealth redistribution at the point of the government's gun is reduced.

[Joe Barta]

That's pretty funny. It wasn't a smooth side step... it was a clumsy one ;-)

Let's re-phrase the question... let's suppose YOU were given a prescription for orthopedic shoes from a govt healthcare provider and the shoes said "Made in China". If you go back to to that healthcare provider and ask for a a prescription for a different brand made somewhere you approve of, they tell you that's the only one they will write a prescription for. Add to that, for all practical purposes, you cannot change healthcare providers.

Do you have any thoughts on what you might do in such a situation?

Joe Barta

[Joe Barta]

I'm always interested in hearing other points of view. One of the ways I can tell how much weight to attribute to a person's particular stated viewpoint is how well they hold up under simple and direct questions.

You don't hold up very well. You're entitled to your opinions of course, but you'll understand if I consider them more bluster than substance.

Joe Barta

[Dave Balderstone]

Charlie never asked me a question, Joe. He made dclarative statements, and demanded that I tell him what his course of action should be. I declined. Charlie has to make his own decisions.

I really don't care what you think about my opinions, Joe.

[Joe Barta]

That's certainly fair enough.

If you're willing to oblige, I have another question for you... when you speak or write, do you have a desire that reasonably intelligent, reasonable and rational people consider seriously what you have to say on any particular matter?

Joe Barta