The ugly side of business - long

[nailshooter41]

Due to a recent slow down in business as well as an unsatisfactory relationship with my bookkeeping/tax firm, I have decided to take over my own bookkeeping and bill paying chores for the business again.

I will still have my old firm take care of my taxes as there are some things that only a good tax guy can know these days and I have found a lot less problems occur with a professional preparer.

Anyway, I have set up my own books before a few times with my different small companies. So long ago in fact, that I started with a big green, General Ledger book. Over the years, I have kept my hand in, but haven't wanted to be a full charge bookkeeper and my time was best spent out in the field where my business and company worked.

About 15 years ago, I kept my own books and did them on Quicken. It worked like a champ. It is (and remains) a single entry system, so it it was easy to set up and use. I was literally able to set up the program, the proper accounts, and entered about 500 transactions (the year) in less than a week.

But now, the question seems to be between Quickbooks and Quicken Home and Business. My tax guy uses Peachtree as well as the professional package of Quickbooks, but would prefer my data in a Quickbooks or Quicken format since my data will easily convert or be directly read by her software.

I now write less than 25 checks month. so bookeeping and accts. rec/ pay are light. All equipment is fully depreciated. I don't necessarily have to generate my own 1099s as the subs I use I have had them on board so long the tax guys will kick out the 1009s and transfer paperwork for nothing.

I don't have any direct employees, and when I do, I use a service that charges per check and handles all accompanying paperwork for quarterly transfers, etc.

So, having read all I can stand about the differences between Quicken H&B and Quickbooks, I am still not sold on either. People really love Quickbooks as it is infinitely flexible. But as a dual entry system and a little clumsier interface, it is like killing an ant with a sledghammer (remember, down to +/- 25 transactions a month!). Quicken is easier to use, has a single entry setup (perfect for a less sophisticated needs company) but has less reporting capability and isn't as flexible in account setup.

I have visited online forums for each. I have visited online tech groups for each. I have read comparisons for each. Both have their staunch supporters and detractors. Me? Well, I'm just confused.

I am not a full charge bookkeeper, but keeping my own books is something I did for years, and I still monitor these days anyway. I just don't know which program to start with. I know I can get the demos for both online for free, but a couple of third party tax sites reported the demos from Intuit (maker of both packages) were buggy and in some cases incomplete (really... how stupid is that?) and that you can only apply the fixes to the full, registered version. Don't want to play/test with buggy software.

So... does anyone have any insight into these two, or experiences with just one? Something based on personal experience?

thoughts would be appreciated.

Robert

[dpb]

[e-mail] wrote: ...

That's significant potentially depending on how he's doing billing--is it for individual actions/entries or simply a flat fee? Do you provide detail transaction data or summary year end? Those kinds of issues could influence choice.

...

I went w/ QB Pro back in '99 when went out on own consulting and back to farm instead of consulting through a fronting firm.

About the same volume of transactions, payroll situation about the same, altho have various depreciation and royalty interests, etc., that add some complications.

I quit updating QB after 2000 and would _not_ put a new version on any machine I had owing to Intuit's business practice and similar issues w/ updates, security (phone home), and sunsetting functionality policies.

I provide summary tax information to the tax guy in either text files or even as printed informations rather than the full database that some seem to use. I asked back then and for small accounts such as these they really don't want more detail or the hassle of handling the full database simply to generate tax returns.

The tax tables issue and payroll are two of the biggest complaints always w/ Intuit so I think you're choice of outsourcing those is the way to go. I'm somewhat smaller in that regard than you even; I just write the checks manually and post them to the general ledger and those summary accounts are all the tax firm needs to generate the 1099's.

If I were starting now, I'd probably just use an Excel spreadsheet to mimic the old green ledger. I might consider Quicken if I didn't have the pre-existing bias against Intuit that came from using their products to date and what they've done since I got started.

HTH at least some...

--

[PDQ]

Seems to me that Quicken can, at least, download the goodies to a disc = in "dot delimited" format which your accountant can then upload to her = system to produce your tax reports.

I know they do not like to do that, but, it can be done. I did it with = "Mind your own business".

P D Q

[BDBConstruction]

Robert, I can honestly say I feel your pain. I likely wont have a tremendous amount to add as you seem pretty well versed in both programs. We too started with quicken a long time ago for our homebuilding and remodeling business as well as other small side businesses. It was fast and easy though in using just quicken home we had no ability to, within one program, generate estimates and invoices as well as to do detailed tracking incomes/expences for specific projects. This left us generating estimates and invoices in Word leaving lots of legwork, paperwork, and headache. Perhaps H&B solves this issue.

Perhaps 10 or 12 years ago our accountant nudged us towards quickbooks pro likely to make his job easier. We made the switch. At this point I have kept up with quickbooks but in our situation we are still barely scratching the surface of its capabilities.

We are running a good bit more with regards to transactions and checks than you state you will be dealing with. Our situation sounds similar to yours in that payroll is handled outside as well as 1099's by the accountant.

At times I miss the ease of use of quicken however the ability to drill down into individual complex jobs, or even individual trades (drywall, framing, etc) to see where you are making it and not is nice in quickbooks. One thing that has always daunted me with quickbooks is I have just never had a mind for accounting and getting it setup correctly was and is a challenge. I didnt find the template businesses in the setup to be of much help. Some other things that I find hard with QBP is that often times I would like to provide the customer with a single line estimate or invoice yet track all the details of the project from estimate through invoice in the back ground. There are likely ways to do this however the second job is not what I am looking for.

I think the subject line you chose couldnt possibly be better. For us, this is perhaps the single worst aspect of being in business. As if its not bad enough to have to work a lot of hours in your specific profession, you then have several hours, up to a second full time job with regards to paperwork. Especially if you want it right and easy at the end of the year. We are perpetually in the gray area where sub'ing out the book keeping is more money we dont want to spend, yet we rarely have enough time to keep up with it as it should be.

While it wouldnt help with book keeping, and our accountant wouldnt like to hear it, this is why I am in favor of a use or flat tax. Any reduction in paperwork and the burden of being in business would be a big help.

Mark

[Lee Michaels]

wrote in

I have used various accounting programs over the years. Most of them are no longer in business.

I have found, both for myself and others, the best way to go is to find a CPA who supports an accounting program. Have him set up your accounts and have him on speed dial for any questions.

I personally like Peachtree. And it is well supported.

[Swingman]

wrote

Have/still have a number of business interests that fit your DIY style.

Mostly used QuickBooks until about two years ago. Intuit are opportunistic bastards as far as I'm concerned.

The last straw was when I was _forced_ to upgrade or lose online access to accounts ... we're talking about being forced to buy a new version at almost full retail price. The latest versions won't even run on two of my machines using Win2K ... IOW, if I want to run the latest version, I would also be forced to upgrade two office computers, which still do the intended job for everything else.

All the above notwithstanding, if I had to pick between QB and PT, it would be QB hands down, particularly if you don't need to access your accounts online and can live with just using QB as a ledger system and for reports.

IOW, I still use QB, for one company only, being familiar with it from years of use and data for that particular enterprise, but will never, ever give Intuit the satisfaction of buying an upgrade.

As for PT ... watched SWMBO struggle with it in her non-profit, which grosses in the six figures, and I gave up trying to help her with it years ago. Her accountant finally switched her over to QB a couple of years ago and she has not asked me for help since, so it must be agreeing with her.

IMNHO, QuickBooks is much easier, and most importantly, takes much less of your time than PT, and is the lesser of two evils, as much as I hate to say it.

[nailshooter41]

That depends on the job. Flat fee billing for most of my work, BUT... change orders require additional fractional billing that can be attributed as a job cost to an individual job.

For example - a repair of XXX will require a nominal fee as downpayment in order to satisfy the legal definition of a proper contract. Still, if it is a one day job or half day job from a repeat client, I don't get anything but the check at the end.

On the other hand, the kitchen remodel I am working on now has had 8 different change orders that need to be attributed to that project for job costing.

As with everyone else that has a business, I have to have access to individual transactions. My tax preparer wants to see the summary reports, but wants to review my transactions on a spot basis to make sure I get all the right pegs in the right holes. Both of the Intuit programs will do this from what I understand.

Reading their respective forums and third party sites for small businesses and accountants, you are not alone. They have mightily pissed off a lot of people no matter what program of their you use. Their sunsetting policy is so profoundly stupid it reeks of Microsoft style arrogance.

Think about it; for comparative analysis in tax preparation, we were all making money in '05, '06, and most of '07. This is the year things tapered off. So if you cannot import old data into your program, how will you know how the best way is to finalize a depreciation schedule, review an income averaging strategy, etc.?

Part of my strategy has been the incorporation of paying my vendors online. This not only lessens the paperwork generated but makes payment fast, easy, ontime and I have the knowledge that >> I the pre-existing bias against Intuit that came from using their products

You are not alone. From what I read, the only reason some of the folks are staying with either of those programs is because they are so heavily invested in time and effort into the software and its setup.

For me, it should make a difference. Apparently the importation of data capability stopped last year's version (2008) and it affected only the data from 2006 and earlier. And truthfully, while I am downsized, as long as I have the detailed reports as printables, that doesn't bother me too much.

Absolutely. You brought up some good points, and they are helping me refocus. I need to get this issue put to bed, and get out and promote my business, not worry over my bookkeeping chores.

Robert

[steve robinson]

Butting in here , my biggest complaint with all the account software companies is the fact that they make it almost impossible to switch between packages , its about time that they were forced to write packages that other accounts software could read and interprate instead of handcuffing you

[lenhow]

Reading this reminds me why I went to work for someone else 8 years ago after having been self-employed for 30 years.

Best of luck !

Lenny

[nailshooter41]

Reading your post, it honestly sounds like you do.

When/if I really get busy again, I will outsource the bookkeeping/bill paying. As it is now, I am only saving $50 a month. When I am really busy, that $50 looks like nothing, even to my tightfisted self. Many services around here will do bookkeeping/checkwriting/vendor paying for up to 50 entries a month for $50 if you also have them do your taxes.

The problem with that is you have no way to review job costs, generate your own reports (the $50 only includes two summary reports at the end of each quarter - other reports are $$ more) and to immediately review your financial status.

Thankfully, for me it isn't hard. I realized about 1980 that I had quit being a repair/remodel/house builder and become a business man. When I was really cranking, I had spates of years where I never wore a set of nail bags or carried a saw in the truck except for special projects.

It is EASY to see that the reason most construction businesses fail is their lack of accounting/tax planning skills.

Since I started so far back, I can always tell at any time (no matter who keeps the books) how much money the company has in the bank. I keep a notebook with me on the job and hand record any payments (and keep the receipts) so that I can have a running total in my easy reach (brief case) of what I am doing dollars in to dollars out.

ME NEITHER! At this slower time, I need to be talking up my business, not locked away in my office trying to figure out why I can't summarize a report properly or why an entry didn't show up on a transaction summary.

And the way I have been keeping up with my billings and payables is so easy it is silly. In my head, I know who owes me, as well as how much I have been paid. I can find these numbers easily. But before we had all the cool accounting software, for my larger jobs I started keeping my contracts, invoices, change orders, contract addendums, etc., in a document folder with the job name on it. I use my word processor. Then at any time I can pull all that information. When I get paid for the invoice, I just save the file with "PAID" at the end. With descriptive titles, I could easily see what was going on by looking at the job folder.

With repairs, I do it like we did in the late 1800's. I print the invoice and put it in the accts. rec. tray. When it is paid, I put the paid invoice in the manila folder for the job. When it is overdue (rare - I have mostly repeat customers) I put it in the "overdue" tray. It is as simple as managing an "in" and "out" box. One of my old secretaries showed me that method.

But now that I will be doing all of it, I would rather do it all on the machine and be done with it. I want it all done at one shot if possible, and I can say good bye to the trays and the word processor (except for contracts, etc.).

I really think that really sums up most of us that are in the small business arena. My tax adviser specializes in small business and in particular, construction businesses. She agrees with me; most contractors feel like they are successful if there is money in the bank at the end of the month. That's all they want to know. When you start a business you should have to take a test or go to a preparatory class to let you know what you are in for with employees, quarterly reports, transmittal forms, etc., just to keep up with the tax end of things.

Amen, brother. I have had more friends of mine than I can count go broke, file bankruptcy, etc. just because they didn't know about all the reports, taxes, etc. that creep into your life when you decide to take the plunge. They always thought I was kidding when I told them to go get a job that had regular hours, health insurance and a retirement plan.

As a matter of fact, I have a contractor friend that will be filing bankruptcy here in town in the next few months. He hung his shingle on the wall and went to work against all my caution. He never appreciated how much ancillary paperwork there would be or how much he would have to learn.

Combine that with the "bar stool accountants" he chose to listen to, and he is now in a tax mess that will take about 7 years to pay off. He is a great guy, but just made a bad mistake and a couple of wrong decisions that he researched carefully. That's all it took. The only reason the IRS offered him a payout is because he burned up all of his retirement (30 years at AB Dick) to live his dream of "owning his own business" and doesn't have much left. **GRRRR**

OK.. commentary off. Back to the search for software...

Robert

[Leon]

I personally use Quicken Home and Office. In 1986 I used and loved Dollars and Sense, strictly a DOS program, bullet proof and simple to use. Quicken came along and was strictly a SNAFU piece of crap, free for a few years IIRC but how could you charge for software that did not require you to expense the purchase and if you did not expense the purchase the reports told you that you still had the money in the bank. Hummmm.. IMHO not until the last 5 or 6 years has Quicken been trustworthy. I tried QuickBooks 10 years ago and whew, way overly complicated for my needs, probably much better now however Quicken H&O does it for me. BTY I use a separate Quicken file for the business end of my accounting, I don't mix business accounts with personal accounts. I don't totally rely on Quicken H&O to handle all of my business accounting, I prefer to keep track of spending also on a spread sheet, I still don't trust totally Quicken's reports. YMMV

[Lew Hodgett]

RE: Subject

Reminds me of when the tax codes were being rewritten back in the mid

80's.

My office land lord was an insurance agency.

I asked him what he planned to do about the upcoming tax code changes.

He answered, "Wait till the quit screwing around and then my accountant will figure out how to f**k them. That's why I have him."

Made me realize that I was no longer qualified to do anything more than balance my personal check book, much less do the company books.

YMMV

Lew

[Robatoy]

I realised that many, many years ago. My dad is an accountant, a proper one, and did all my books and filings until 2003 when I sold my business. Then, as my latest adventure grew and grew, I decided to hand over all the bullshit to an accountant. She's one sharp cookie and totally ethical. She doesn't believe the gov't should ever get a dime that isn't coming to them as they can't handle the dimes they are already getting.

My advice to Robert... get a service to do this for you. Sure you pay for it, but, I gotta tellya... I sleep really well, and use my time making money, not fretting over piles and piles of paperwork. I hate paperwork, I suck at it.

I would NEVER even THINK about taking out my own appendix, WTF should I even THINK that I am a bookkeeper/accountant?

I simply do not have time to look after nickels and dimes, it is counterproductive. I'd much rather make dollars.

My advice to any small/medium business owners: "a man has got to know his limitations."

[Swingman]

"Robatoy" wrote

Yabbut, unless your "service" pays all your bills/operating expenses, and with no bookkeeper on the payroll, you still must have records for the accountant/service to work from.

Unless I'm mistaken, that is what Robert is in a quandary about.

And, as long as you must do that part, it is also nice to have instant, onsite access to things like vendor information, and P&L and Net Worth reports without having to go to a service to do so.

Besides, I trust NO one with access to my personal or business accounts/money, but me! ... YMMV. :)

[Robatoy]

I have access to all that data on-line.

I still sign the cheques. I go to sign them once a week. The whole deal takes a half hour, including any banter and advice and questions I may have. At that time, I hand them any invoices which I have issued and bills I have received. They have no access to my accounts, either on-line or otherwise. In God we trust, the rest need my password or signature.

[nailshooter41]

For the most part, I am great at paper work when it concerns my money. I simply don't have mountains of unmanageable paperwork at this time. When I did, I had a service. They handled it all and sent me the reports I asked for at the end of each month's reconciliation.

I used to buy legal pads that I kept for all my large jobs. I put the budget highlights on the first page or two, then kept a handwritten log of all transactions (including labor) on the following pages. I could literally pull out the correct legal pad and tell someone down to the cent where I was on their job as far as costs went, including the amount of money drawn and owed on the contract. I don't like screwing that stuff, but I accept it as a part of business.

Maybe we are talking about two different things. Maybe we look at the processes differently. I dunno. But I sure wouldn't put garden variety bookkeeping up there with organ removal.

Note too, that I separate the two completely, DISTINCTLY different processes of bookkeeping and tax preparation.

Me, too. But at the opportunity to save some dough in these slower times, I think it wouldn't hurt for me to pay the bills and mind the store personally from the comfort of my computer in the evening whilst I promote my business and do the work during the day.

Believe me, I do. When I was building my first corporation, I knew about the processes of organizing the accounting procedures, but couldn't do it. I couldn't decide which tax election to take (C? S?) which would help identify accounting procedures that the business, which depreciation mode to take for capital purchases, and on and on.

I am a quick study, though. I took courses in accounting to make sure I was on my game as I could see how many of my comrades had fallen to the bloody hatchet of the IRS. I won't ever trust a bookkeeper or tax preparer all the way anymore, no matter how talented they are or how sincerely they treat my company. I ask a lot of questions and want good answers.

But that is all geared towards tax preparation and strategy, not bookkeeping.

All I am looking for is an accurate way to record and manipulate my financial data as I need it. I still cannot do my company taxes at this point (if it gets much slower it might be pretty easy though!) as there are some tax points to consider from changing the status of my company.

Bookkeeping? Should be a walk in the park with the right program. I don't have to worry about depreciation schedules, quarterly deposits, quarterly reports, employment commission reports, quarterly projected earning deposits, etc.

I just need an intelligent program with some standard reporting capabilities, ease of setup, and the ability to manipulate data into some personal reports that I might want to see.

The taxes are still outsourced.

Robert

[nailshooter41]

Exactly. Like you were reading my mind. (Don't mind the bourbon smell. The lady of the house is off shopping....)

Robert

[MikeWhy]

Just in general, flexibility is a dual edged sword. If it's something I deeply care about, the upfront investment of setting it up just the way I like might be worthwhile. For everything else, I'll adapt my way of working to fit the way it wants to work, provided of course it does enough of what needs to be done. It sounds to me like you don't really want to take a part time job as your own bookkeeper. Don't they offer a trial period on both? I would gamble on the simpler package, and see if I can fit my workflow to its peculiarities. After all, how truly different is my business, and how intractible is it in a "generic" ledger?

[Lee Michaels]

I guess I am not with either of you guys on this. I took some accounting classes in school and learned the old, manual double entry system. I have also helped set up accounting programs for a number of businesses. As complicated as it may seem, once the systems is set up, any questions can be answered with a quick call to the CPA. I have often paid for an hour or two in advance and this lasted me for a year or more.

Once you get it set up and have used it for awhile, it is simple. Particularly with some support. Do what feels comfortable.

I need to track down specialized financial reporting software soon. It is an area that I know nothing about and is not a part of any accounting program. So I have a bit of a learning curve myself soon.

I should point out that some folks actually do everything with Excel spreadsheets. Microsoft has a new accounting program that is based on spreadsheets. So that is a logical upgrade for those folks.

Just like the way that many people handle their depreciation tracking, they do it all in a spreadsheet. So anything unusual or unique, set up the spreadsheet for that purpose. Then take the spreadsheet results and inter it into the accounting program.

[Robatoy]

I also got an e-mail from a company that is set up to handle all facets of my business and personal management. I will be preparing a file of all my accounts and passwords and send them off to them soon. I can suggest you try them and will post that link ...it's in Nigeria someplace...