Morris Dovey wrote in news:49a9c548$0$89395$ snipped-for-privacy@news.qwest.net:
Or to simply share with others so they don't have to reinvent the wheel. If all of the hobbyists shared their drawings it would be a huge timesaver. To a certain extent that's what the SketchUp warehouse is all about, though I've not found any "complete" drawings yet.
It's a hobby in itself to some, and maybe even an end in itself to some others. I don't recall anyone here suggesting doing that, though. I tend to draw in the tenons. Having already thought it through, it doesn't make sense to NOT make the notation. Doing so might even help keep me from cutting that perfect fitting mortise someplace I didn't want one. Really, it's not a big deal; just offset the end profile and pull and push it to the right shape. Adding a haunch is even easier.
If I didn't draw them in, I'd stand at the bench and sketch them in with a pencil. If I didn't like pencils even, maybe I'd just go straight for the saw. That's valid, too. Just cut it over length, mark the shoulders, and have at it. But you still have to think it through at some point.
My personal limit for drudge work is finger joints. I don't have the patience to grind them out on the tablesaw or router table. So, I never have to worry about drawing them in SU. Not that I think it would be difficult. Something like that is even more important to get right, to make sure the fingers and spaces don't offer surprises somewhere else.
But you can get most of that from just a plain box. To actually go in and draw the dovetails on the drawer is kind of crazy. Though I realize the drawing was teaching aid so I can understand doing some things just for the sake of doing them.
You can add in extra detail where you need it, but to start from a philosophy of every detail must be in the drawing is well, different from mine :) I've done models where I only put in three legs and two sides. I think while you certainly can get a lot of power out of sketchup with making everything components and using layers, you can also just whip up something quick and dirty that's enough to get you going.
What's so bad about thinking while you're building? I think better on my feet, and I started woodworking in part because I was sick of sitting at a computer all the time. When I'm thinking in the shop I have a chance to grab the broom or make it so I can see the top of the bench again. Going into the shop without all the answers predetermined is fun!
-Kevin
innews:49a9c548$0$89395$ snipped-for-privacy@news.qwest.net:
Fair enough, but how often does that come into play for the average woodworker? And would different parts made by two average woodworkers end up fitting together :)
The nice thing about a partial drawing is you get to exercise you're own creativity in completing it.
-Kevin
I should have included the URL:
innews:49a9c548$0$89395$ snipped-for-privacy@news.qwest.net:
Methinks the "average woodworker" is likely to be a nailbender. Somehow I don't think that anyone in this forum aspires to be an average woodworker, so I'm not sure I understand where you're wanting to go with this...
...and I doubt that different parts made by /one/ truly average woodworker have a very high probability of fitting together precisely.
I can understand how that might be true for work that is primarily decorative. On the other hand, if you decide to build a clock with wooden works or something requiring precisely interacting parts, you'll find that your results will be more satisfying if you exercise your creativity /before/ you start building.
All I was really going for was that using that approach in Sketchup isn't the only way to effectively use it. It just depends on what you want to get out of it.
True, but then you might very well want to model things like gears in a program that already has built in functions where you plug in the diameter and number of teeth and spits out a drawing of the gear (maybe such a thing exists for sketchup, don't know). And so maybe you don't need to go to the trouble of importing that into sketchup, maybe just a circle will do. Maybe you're buying plans for that whole mechanism, so you don't bother with anything but a simple object that has the key reference points that interface with the rest.
I think most of us aren't doing stuff like this guy:
wrote
I agree it is most often unnecessary to model the drawers in a project, however, SU will generate a list of parts which can then be used to generate both a material list and a cutlist, so doing so that extra modeling can often come in handy on large projects, particularly with groups of multiple drawers of the same size.
innews:49a9c548$0$89395$ snipped-for-privacy@news.qwest.net:
Kevin, your work is stunning. It's not the kind of thing that I think I'd ever attempt, but it's wonderful to look at.
Morris said in response that the "average woodworker" is likely a nailbender and is not represented here in the Wreck. I'm not so sure about that. I think I'm more of a nailbender than a craftsman, and therefore I can speak from that level.
For two reasons I need to see the thing I'm building and need to know in advance what I think is going to happen when I go into the shop. First, I'm not particularly high in the visualization of a new project. Things don't work out so well just inside my head, and having a plan, even 2-D, helps me immeasurably. 3-D takes me into that shop with some amount of confidence that I know where I'm going. That's a bit of an illusion, and I'll get to that later, but still I've got a roadmap.
Second, I'm dealing with a low level of skill and experience. There are guys in here who have 40-50 years behind them and can draw from that, putting pieces together for the 100th time that I have never done before. That's not me. Often, in either design, build or assembly, I'm tackling things that I've merely heard of before. That can be an immense challenge, and plans can make that challenge manageable.
Having said that, the best laid plans...etc. Regardless of how many times I've laid something out on paper, the real world rears its ugly head in the shop and I have to adjust on the fly as you allude to. It's the nature of the business, because if you spent all your time planning for every contingency, you'd never open the door to the shop. And that's cool too, cause that's when learning truly takes place.
FWIW
Tanus
Thanks, but I found it, using the words of my son when he was 3, "all by my self". LOL
I absolutely agree on the details of the DT joints and mortise and tenons, although some times doing one of the mortise and tennon joints can be helpful if you are using that joint on a side and back of a narrow leg that you may be attaching a long apron to. I built a walnut desk last summer and seeing the inside of the joint using the x-ray view let me see if the tennons were going to come in contact with each other. I was able to offset the aprons a bit more so that this did not happen.
Agreed, as mentioned above.
I've done models where I only put in three legs and two
Agreed, and again especially if it is a comcept that you have done time and again. I don't really draw drawer details for a kitchen redo any more although I will draw the drawer so that I know howmany of which pieces to plan for. I use Cutlist Plus all the time tell me how much wood to buy.
Nothing really bad about doing the detail solving in the shop, that is the way that I started doing it in the late 70's and early 80's. I drew a concept and worked it out in the shop/garage. I'll admit that I built some pretty nice stuff that I still use today but geez it took a long time to complete a project. I built a dresser that way and I think it took me 3 months of working on weekends. I also would have to make 2 or 3 trips back to my wood supplier to get the materials that I needed. I tended to be a develop the piece as I go type builder back then. Now days it is easier to sell a piece to the customer being able to show him the details of what he is going to spend a few thousand dollars on. I find that I can think just as easily at the computer and see if my idea works and or looks decent immediately. I very seldom have to buy more wood after the initial purchase any more because I have all the details of what I need, knock on wood. I typically don't have any wasted cuts because I know from the drawing exactly how long to cut 98% of the pieces. Basically I can make changes on the computer and present different ideas to the customer and go with the one that he prefers. After doing this for 30 years, I want to build when I am out in the shop not solve problems, I have done that before and that way is not efficient for me.
This is probably not a fair answer from me but Swingman and I have often in the past built kitchens together, He would build the face frames in his shop and I would cut up all the plywood panels. A few years ago I took 27 pieces of oak veneer plywood back to my shop to cut up. When he was done with the face frames and i was done with the 100+ panels we would get together at his shop and spend 3 or 4 days assembling all the components for a kitchen or two. Typically a few weeks later we would install the cabinets.
That can also be done on the computer, but you can be creative in several different versions. That way you end up with your favorite version and so to speak not be taking "pot luck" with what you end up with.
Ditto ... as a builder I hate having to "field engineer" and don't' relish it in the shop. It's also an enjoyable past time for me to plan a project "in detail", particularly when it's my own design ... second in enjoyment, perhaps, to actually seeing the results of a well executed plan.
I also agree with Kevin, you don't have to draw in every tubafour in the framing plan of a house ... I don't usually have the need to draw the dovetails on a drawer, or the drawers in a cabinet run for that matter, unless it's to get a detail into the clients head, or give them a choice.
LOL ... you can't argue with success, or the topnotch skill and equipment that allows such precision.
(it's also nice that the tape measures on our saw fences just happen to coincide!) :)
Yeppers ... for me, there is a *great* deal of satisfaction in executing a carefully crafted, well thought out, PLAN.
... probably because I'm not all that "creative". :)
Not to mention, IIRC you were always wondering "what if" concerning the legs/feet on your table in the kitchen area. With Sketchup you were able to determine that you had make the right choice concerning the size. Had it been available and you had used Sketchup you could have saved years of wondering, "what if". LOL
Yes, a good one, here is a more direct link"
No CAD or not much CAD background here, but I still started and stopped about 3-4 times before I started to get a handle on it.
Oddly, it seems to take exactly that to understand and finally appreciate SU. Both myself and Swingman pretty much started with the program the same way. I do have quite a bit of CAD experience and have never been instructed on CAD. I did have a couple of years of formal training in mechanical and architectural drafting however. Having that back ground certainly helps in learning how to make the programs perform efficiently. Stick with it, with 20 years CAD experience and having bought and used the more expensive versions I am leaving AutoCAD LT behind after working with it for 12 years and going through 5 upgrades. Prior to that I used IMSI Designer, TurboCAD, and 3 versions of AutoSketch. So now I am happier than ever with Sketchup. I have no problem admitting that I have invested a few thousand in CAD programs in the last 20 years and have moved up to a free program. It is different than a CAD program but it certainly holds it's own in this medium.
I think many people looked to CAD (if only the basics of it) because there were few really capable graphics programs around and if you learned enough you could design most anything with it. Now with faster and more affordable computers around and the plethora of available, cheaper (and free) graphics programs that abound, we can pick and choose what will do the job with the least amount of effort. That's not CAD anymore for most people.
Robatoy will chafe (as will many of us) at all the "experts" who suddenly appear in the design arena solely because of the cheapness and capabilities of new software. People will have to put in a fraction of the time necessary to learn more advanced programs than what was originally necessary for any CAD program. It's exactly that same as the $700 I spent some years ago on my first 80 meg hard drive. Now all I can do is reminisce about it because hard drive space is thousands of times cheaper. Life's a bitch sometimes.
I employ both; as a long-time TurboCad (v.2, mostly v.7 and more recently Deluxe v.12) user and SU not long after I discovered it and it was still @Last Software in Boulder (currently v.6 Pro). SU has been particularly useful to render project drawings that allow clients to envision the finished look of a project. AAMOF I have a drawing to do today for an associate's client, another who "just can't picture what it will look like! (the WHAT IF MY GIRLFRIENDS WON'T LIKE IT!!! syndrome :o) )" Coincidently, the "staff" architect for a timberframe builder my SYB and I employed for a piece of dirt we have in southern Colorado is the voice of the early SU tutorials. At the time (2006?) SU had just been bought by Google and Mark had left the company to strike out on his own. I was excited enough to plop down another $95 on our return to Houston for the v.6 upgrade. I doubt those plans/drawings will be the final project site plans especially for the trades. But, when I need to dimension cabinetry or built-ins or permit plans I still revert to TurboCad (though City of Houston has accepted SU drawings).
Dave in Houston
That SU will slowly be accepted by other departments and cities is inevitable. It is the information that is within the document that counts, not what software created it. In a nearby county there was a engineering manager who only accepted MicroStation documents or printed blueprints. MicroStation?? Ya kidding me? Sure it was a nice CAD program for the Mac, but nobody used it. AutoCAD was, and still is, king around here. The engineering guys want assurance that when they're opening a drawing, that what they see is what it is meant to be. In due time SU will achieve that level of confidence, I'm sure. Then there is the image problem: "I will present you with some SketchUp drawings, madam." (I'm not sure which of the 57 flavours/ingredients yet,,but) And then there is that mischievous component, knowing that those Bob-The-Builder and LegoWare remarks just irk the shit out of some of the thin-skinned class-mates.
Onto my pogo-stick I climbeth and off to make some countertops.....oops, almost dropped my yo-yo.
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