Safe Stop

[Edwin Pawlowski]

You can easily find that information on the Prodigy or CompuServe discussion groups. Works best if you have a fast 1200 baud modem.

[Upscale]

I guess we're just going to have to disagree then. As far as Google goes, there's plenty of other online sources to get information, it doesn't have to be Google at all. It's just that since most (many) consider it the pre-eminent online search engine, it's the first name that pops into my mind when I consider finding many types of information. I'm reasonably sure, (much to your chagrin), that "google" has or will remain a fully recognized word meaning the equivalent of "search engine" long after Google the company has retired into the annals of history.

However, I digress in my argument. I'm old enough to have plenty of experience in the time before internet when the quickest way to find information was to ask someone. If that didn't work and you wanted to invest the time, you went to find test on the subject. These methods are no longer the quickest way to an answer. For simple questions, an online search is easily the fastest method. Placing the question in a newsgroup means that person has to wait for someone to respond. It's not nearly as fast and the answer is much more subject to being "coloured" by the personality of the respondent.

I can only assume that someone who couldn't be bothered to put in a small amount of time to get a quick answer feels that it's easier to use up someone else's time to than use their own. These days, that just doesn't cut it. I know that many feel as I do, that if you want information, then be prepared to make at least a token effort to find the answer by yourself first. At the very least, come forearmed with a little information you've sourced out so you can contribute something on the subject or at least ask intelligent questions as you mine the users here for information.

I'm sure some will consider my opinion to be utter garbage, but if I or someone else can't deal with that sentiment, then is not a place you want to be. Many might consider this discussion the making of a mountain out of a molehill, but the bulk of the messages in any newsgroup is discussion like this one.

Ok, I'm off my soapbox. It's someone else's turn. :)

[Mike Richardson]

Snickle :) With ymodem I spose For dem bigger packets

[Upscale]

Would that I could, but considering my non-existent experience with dust collection systems, I'll have to defer to others.

[RonB]

An alternative is Shop Fox. They are the retail outlet version of Grizzly. Pretty much the same machines with different looks.

RonB

[RonB]

BTW - We have been to the Grizzly Springfield store. If you haven't been to their outlet, by all means do. It is the ultimate big-boys candy store.

RonB

[RonB]

Amen. Actually, I though that was why we hang out in theses places.

To help and to learn.

RonB

[Leon]

You can color the pig any color you like Frank but in the end, all the customer saw was QC problems. It does not matter who you point the finger at, the customer is the one that has to be convienced. Having been in the service business all my life, out side vendors and contractors that help to bring your goods and services to market are as much YOUR responsibility as any aspect of manufacturing the product. You can only blame other sources for so long before you have to find another reason for problems. The shipper is an easy fix, change shippers. Got a contract with that company, you are not going to loose in a contract dispute if the shipper id damaging goods more than the industry average. If Delta did not recognise these facts it explains why the company has been sold, traded, and or merged so many times in recent years.

And from a business stand point that is a big problem also. I have never heard of a shipper having to absorb freight costs because the freight company damages its goods unless of course Delta was prepaired to eat X amount of freight costs to get a better rate. That too obviousely back fired. Delta should have been reimbursed or not charged for every damaged delivery providing the receiver noted the damage at time of receipt. If there were no obvious signs of damage, that was another warning sign missed, improper packaging.

If you cannnot verify, I probably cannot either.

Now a respected poster may have said it, but I've told

Charlie is still the person I am thinking about concerning the comment.

If you could lead me to the source, maybe we could

Not a problem Frank, I respect your point of view and have nothing personal invested in this discussion. If I were in your shoes I would probably defend Delt a little more strongly.

I will not challenge your opinion of Delta, nor

This probably boils down to symantics. I am restating personal observations and comments made by others at stores, this news groups and by a Delta rep. You are stating Delta's observations and again Delta has seen much better days. They certainly have not "oficially" admitted to letting a problem go for so long and where they are today may be a direct result of this kind of thinking and or reaction to a problem. Eventually the customers hear "Wolf" too many times. I have seen this happen in the automotive industry to a well respected and old car company, Oldsmobile. Like you, I had strong ties to Oldsmobile and the service end of that business. Their arrogance eventually sunk the ship. I cannot tell you how many times Oldsmobile pointed fingers in the wrong direction.

I had read of numerous cases prior to actually seeing one.

Believe me, there are stores out there with old stock. Texas Tool Traders had a broken Unisaw in their inventory for several months. Some of their stock has been there for years.

Look, you can have your opinion about

While at the moment Delta may be running like a well oiled machine.... that has not been the case in the past. What has changed to guarantee a positive change?

Snip

Well, I am not making any of this up and have no reason to do so. Now, Wayne J. is also admitting that trunions would "Magically" snap when he worked for Delta . They used to believe it was QC. No mention of blaming a shipping company. Here is nnother reference of some one other than me that has also heard that Delta believed it to be a QC problem. Now I'll give you that Wayne J. for all we know may not be a real person or know beans about Delta although he claims to have worked at Delta and until I made the Delta QC comment was considering the Unisaw as a preferred replacement until he saw the SawStop. He made no comment about the QC issue up front but has admitted knowledge about the trunion failures and still is considering the Unisaw. this all falls in place with what I have read and been told.

His comment,

When I worked at Delta, we had two common failurs in the older unisaws, trunions and starters. The starters we used in Canada were prone to failure on the contact points. The trunions coould just macigally snap. We used to believe it was QC. The later generaion ones were better. Still my favorite, but the SawStop is getting my attention. I still have all

10 fingers, but I have had my share of scares.

So now, you have the same proof that I am not making this up and that I along with others have just reason to make the comments about QC at Delta. That is as good as I can do for you right now.

I don't think they were being targeted but you have to admit, the evidence does not look good for Delta. Now if you can provide an answer as to why Delta Unisaws did not fair as well as other brands through the shipping process I'll bet it will include something about QC whether it be in the manufacturing or packaging of the product.

And what does that indicate? Packaging problems? Is that not a QC problem that affected the product and the views of the customer?

In the real business world Frank, that is crap. The "company" is responsible, period. The company makes all the choices from design to delivery to the customer. If they make bad choices that is still their problem. If they make good choices they benefit from that also. The customer does not care one bit whose fault it is that the product arrives broken. The real looser is Delta because of that way of thinking.

You can come up with all the reason as to why, the fact remains that Delta had QC problems as far as it's customers was concerned and bottom line that is the only important person that Delta needs to please. Personally I don't buy the shipping excuse because it was mostly a Delta issue.

With all due respect Frank, thank you for the opportunity to hash this out once again. ;~) I still have the utmost respect of your openions and will continue to value your comments. Stick to your guns, Delta needed more people like you.

[Leon]

Well there is a refreshing different point of view that makes a lot of sense.

[Leon]

Precicely.

[Frank Boettcher]

I'll rest on all other issues, not going to rehash, let those that are interested make up their own minds. On the issue of Wayne J.'s experience with Delta, I'll defer until he authenticates. Despite its market penetration, Delta is a small company, I would probably know him if we worked during the same time frame. If his tenure was earlier than mine, his opinion (as an employee) on this matter would not be relevant. I hope he responds, would be good to have another Delta ex as a poster, particularly with Canadian experience.

However, when responding to a recommendation request, if you degrade Delta by either offering information that is not true (trunnion torque setting problems) or issues that are not currently relevant, then I will respond accordingly, that is with the truth. Nothing personal, just want the air to stay clear of clutter.

During my career with Delta, I was the Quality Manager for a time prior to becoming the head of domestic manufacturing operations. I and those who both preceded me and came after me in the Quality position deserve to have the truth, good or bad and there is plenty of both to go around, on a public forum. I'll not mention the Quality Manager by name who was in office during the trunnion breakage time frame, but will say that no one was more concerned or worked harder to diagnose the cause, and respond with corrective action.

Frank

[Edwin Pawlowski]

It has nothing to do with LTL shippers, but everything to do with inadequate packaging or poor design. When you have damage getting a product to the customer, you must change one or both.

I had a customer that tried to solve a very expensive breakage problem with a $25 package when what they really needed was a 5¢ screw to hold a power supply. This sort of thing happens all the time. Once the problem is recognized, just fix it in the most simple manner.

[Doug Miller]

What makes you think that I'm attempting to set myself up as "the sole arbiter of where one commences a search"? Get a grip, Mike, all I did was suggest that since the SawStop has already been discussed here numerous times, he should check Google Groups to see what's already been said.

Again -- if he wants opinions on the SawStop, the easiest way of finding them is to look at the opinions that have already been expressed.

And where did I tell him anything even remotely like "all the answers you need are there, now piss off"??

Relax, have a cold beer, and calm down.

[Doug Miller]

Exactly.

[Mike Richardson]

Doug,

Mate, I am relaxed. I went to some length to mention a number of times my respect for the group and posters - and I did not intend at all that you take my blathering as a personal attack. It was an attack of the concept. I unreservedly apologise if it came across otherwise.

Mike

[Doug Miller]

Thanks, Mike, no prob. If you're ever in the States, and passing through Indianapolis, look me up.

[Wayne J.]

Nope, probably while I was gone. I don't know if I have ever seen one. I am thinking hard, but that rally hurts. I am going to go look through my old manuals.

A lot of US saws were never sold in Canada as we had our own foundry in Guelph. Our models were usually the same.

I am doing a search on the web for some pictures to jog my memory.

I love the old tools. It is nice to rebuild one and show it off later.

wayne

[Wayne J.]

Now I remember it. I just saw a picture at

ex-boss had one. I liked the looks of it, I just never liked the idea of holding my wood at an angle when it was cutting.

I love the old machines

wayne

[Frank Boettcher]

Enlighten me. I'm not familiar with that saw. Does it not have a flat table front edge? I'm curious about why a biese won't mount. All the old saws used round rails with special spacing shoulder bolts assemblies that had a radiused section to mount the rail. But, for most saws, to mount a Biese the only requirement was to remove the guide rail and mount the flat rail directly to the front edge.

[Larry Blanchard]

Agreed. I've got a fair number of old hand tools, but the 1160 is my first old power tool. I hope I'm not getting addicted :-).