Quick Electrial Question

[-MIKE-]

It's a disposal that runs for a few seconds a few times a day. It doesn't mean they should be scared out of doing an otherwise safe installation simply because the nec found a reason to advise against it.

An example. Wall plugs are now installed "upside-down" apparently because of a new fear that a metal object could fall behind the plug which isn't fully plugged in and short the hot/neutral. This doesn't all of a sudden render all the plugs in my house unsafe, simple because there are still people in the world who can't seem to plug in their stuff all the way.

[Doug Miller]

Perhaps you'd care to discuss the tests you've conducted, and your qualifications for evaluating the results, that enable you to describe with such certainty as a "safe installation" something that the NFPA has decided is *not* safe.

In any event, it's a silly thing to do. Installing a duplex receptacle is easier, *and* complies with the Code.

[Stuart]

I've seen that figure quoted twice; it depends on the rating of the device.

The one on the incomer to our house, previously mentioned, is rated at

30mA. The one I use on my electronics workbench for equipment I am working on is rated at 10mA

[-MIKE-]

Many of my electrical engineer friends, including my good friend and neighbor who's worked for AEP for 20 years, will admit and lament that quite a few nec requirements are overkill and based more on fear... and fear of lawsuits... than actual safety and good sense. Theirs is the experience qualifications by which I expressed my opinion and advice for this one, limited and specific situation.

There are many safety techniques prescribed by osha that many an experienced and skilled woodworker simply ignore because they are pretty silly and only in place to keep Darwinism in check. :-)

Installing a receptacle was my advice.

[Puckdropper]

-MIKE- wrote in news:j40evm$5vl$ [e-mail]:

Some devices were designed to sit on the outlet and rely on gravity to push them against the wall. The outlet expander/surge protector is an example of this. With the device plugged in upside down, they're pulled away from the wall, which creates the situation the upside down outlets are trying to avoid.

I do enjoy a little irony now and then. ;-)

Puckdropper

[Bill]

That's a good point about the switch. I'm writing that down so I don't forget to check. I finished installing the new outlet about 4am last night. It wasn't easy to get to, and there wasn't enough romex available to offer me many alternatives. Now, I can try to install the garbage disposal...

Actually, when we bought the house 2 years ago, we pointed out the lack of a GFCI outlet near the sink and the sellers put one in. So now, there is a 15A GFCI outlet on a 20A circuit/circuit breaker. Should it be swapped out with a 15A circuit breaker because of this? One could argue that the C'Breaker IS protecting "the wire", no? Or is this a potential hazard?

Thanks! Bill

[Bill]

One man's noise is another man's music. You carry around an outlet tester and speak with inspectors in the course of your work. I do not have the same background. I learned more than 1 or 2 useful things and also received a valuable suggestion to check the wiring of my switch!

Please don't let my posts cause you any aggravation. I was going to reply to the message requesting which outlet tester you recommended. Of course, your reply was more informative and more interesting than one I would have been able to write. I don't read the threads that seem like "noise" to me--and being a "(rural) country blues" fan, I have a really good ear for noise! I have a banjo and a fiddle too, so I Really know somemthing about noise... ;)

Cheers, Bill

[Doug Miller]

Just the same, I don't imagine that they knowingly advise anyone to violate the NEC.

And mine.

[Swingman]

Where do you see "aggravation" exhibited? AMMOF, do you not know what " :) " is?

As for the noise, stick around ... this is an electrical thread on the wRec. As such it stands a historical chance of still being alive weeks from now.

[Swingman]

Not usually a problem - where the branch circuit supplies one duplex, or two or more single receptacles - or a code violation in most locales. A

15A receptacle, standard or GFCI, is rated for 20A throughput.

Basically, it should be impossible by virtue of the plug configuration, by today's standards, to plug anything in that would be in violation.

CAVEAT: again, this may not apply to all jurisdictions, as even the exceptions may vary from place to place, IME.

[Swingman]

For the AR's ... that was intended to read "would be a danger".

Gotta be careful, in an electrical thread on the wRec, that you don't start a fire!

:)

[John G]

Yes they are.

1 For different applications ie Medical, domestic, Industrial etc. 2 There are different rules in ifferent jurisdictions and countries.

[Puckdropper]

John G wrote in news:srednR3bPLaWlvnTnZ2dnUVZ [e-mail]:

I'm not looking forward to the day you have to update the firmware in your GFCI outlet.

Puckdropper

[Mike M]

A garbage disposal is required to have a disconnect which the plug in meets code for a disposal.

Mike M

[Doug Miller]

Yes, but so does a wall switch, as long as it's within sight. (2008 NEC, Article 422.31(B))

[m II]

Mikey posted it first!

Just the same, I don't imagine that they knowingly advise anyone to violate the NEC.

And mine.

[m II]

Ground pin is always the longest. Your point cannot likely happen.

I do enjoy a little irony now and then. ;-)

Puckdropper

[m II]

Neutral and ground are the same thing at only one point in your house. A second box in the same building with neutral connected to ground would violate that safety rule.

Neutral carries current during load. Ground should never carry anything in your house. Two ground points can cause the ground wire to share load and cause many different problems. Simple example: You don't want current flowing through your tub frame to the taps when you are standing in it.

No, the neutral is still the ground.

BTW if you attach a meter to the hot and neutral you'll get voltage. Attach the hot and ground and you'll get voltage.

My house was wired so that neutral and ground are one and the same... My second box was not allowed by code to do that. It had to have neutral and ground seperated... No idea why, but that's code.

[Eric]

Guess it might be. The fan has been in the bathroom for several years so condensation could well have damaged the fan. I'll toss it just to be safe. Thanks

================= You may be wasting your money and effort.

Often this is a result of insulation cuts and nicks (drywall installation etc.) that do not show up until you shut off an inductive motor or other device. When the circuit is broken those devices occasionally produce a high voltage spike (counter EMF) and then the bad insulation spot shows up where the high voltage arcs to ground or other wiring. This can trip your GFCI breaker where it never tripped before.

This is not likely your fan but rather your wiring in the connection boxes. If you want to replace the fan anyway, then it would be a good step to find this annoyance. Disturbing the position of the wiring to change this out may solve the problem also.

[Eric]

Then it's grounded though the water in the pipes. And the ground wire to the disposal.

To get a shock you need a voltage _difference_. Not gonna happen with a garbage disposal full of water.

================== Geeeez! I hope you don't actually believe that one. Water is not a good or reliable ground. Pure water is a complete insulator.

Not acceptable, not safe and will not pass the safety requirement in any code (use of water for ground). Copper pipes can make good conductors but not to be relied on in most cases.