Poly finishes

[Ken]

Can I put a couple of coats of a oil based poly over a water based poly? If so what would be the preperation? This is on solid maple and maple ply.

Thanks

ken

[Mike G]

Once it has cured poly is poly whether it was oil or water based. Yes, you can put poly over poly.

[Larry Jaques]

On Fri, 14 Nov 2003 16:27:20 -0500, "Mike G" brought forth from the murky depths:

There are two problems with that. First, sanding the original coats leaves layer ridges which show through like circles on a bullseye target or a topo map. Just lovely!

Second, fresh poly doesn't stick to cured poly nearly as well as it should. I know these things from people constantly complaining about them here on the wreck, from watching friends and neighbors use the stuff, and from reading the articles written about it. I don't use the crap myself. (Though I did for a short while decades ago, before I knew better.)

Why does anyone continue to use this stuff? MARKETING!

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[Mike G]

It is called witness lines and it is true of any finish that doesn't burn into the previous coats IE shellac and lacquer. This means that witness lines can be a problem with any varnish or catalyzed finish. Witness lines occur when a cured varnish finish is improperly prepared for additional coats. Because each coat forms unique layers and if one sands through one coat somewhere on the surface the boundary between coats causes the witness lines.

A light scuff sanding is all that is necessary to provide some tooth for a new coat of varnish to form a good mechanical bond with a previously cured varnish finish. This is why sanding between coats when putting the first varnish finish is called for. To provide tooth for the following coats which stick just fine.

There is no problem with coating a varnish finish with another varnish finish there is only problems with the techniques used in doing it. If one takes the time to understands what and why a problem occurs it can usually be avoided.

There is continued use of varnish as a finish because there are times when that level of protection is absolutely necessary and, while the application can be problematic, when properly applied varnish can look as good as any other finish and it is still the most protective of the commonly available finishes.

[Larry Jaques]

On Sat, 15 Nov 2003 09:52:58 -0500, "Mike G" brought forth from the murky depths:

Tell me about protection, Mike. Precisely -what- are people doing which -requires- their lovely wood to be wrapped in

s a r a n ?

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[Phil Crow]

I *like* polyurethane. Call me crazy if you must, but I don't see anything wrong with a bulletproof clear finish that's about 1/3 the price and 1/5 the labor of shellac. I mean, ten bucks for a sliver of this stuff ya gotta steep in the alcohol, then apply 40 or 50 coats, THEN wax it? I'm not disputing that shellac looks nice. My money's better spent on longevity, though. Would you shellac your floor? If so, how long would you expect it to last?

Take *that*, all you shellackeys!

-Phil Crow

[Tom Watson]

I don't do a lot of refinishing, but when a good customer asks me to do a small thing for them, once in a while, I go along with them.

Had a customer with an oak kitchen table that had a pretty hammered top.

My go-to finish in this situation would normally be a CAB acrylic lacquer. It has good moisture, abrasion and denting properties, but a little testing showed that this was prolly the finish that was already on there and it had failed to hold up under the onslaught of four young children.

So, I sanded her down and put on a few coats of water-based poly.

After three years the table top still looks like it did the day I finished it.

I'm not a big poly guy. I mostly spray nitro lacquer. But, if I got such a job again, I'd put that poly on in a heartbeat.

Regards, Tom Thomas J. Watson-Cabinetmaker Gulph Mills, Pennsylvania

[B a r r y B u r k e J r .]

Commercial work? Yacht and aircraft interiors? Any type of high-end cabinetry or furniture that needs a good finish?

I can see the martini bar manager now, "use a coaster!!!!".

Larry, why does "varnish" mean wrapped in saran? I've seen plenty of high-end furniture and built-ins, finished in varnishes, with and without urethanes, that look freakin' gorgeous. Some of this stuff is even on display in prestigious museums, such as NYC's Metropolitan Museum of Art, or the Yale Art Gallery. I've also seen beautiful, _varnished_ woodwork in churches and multi-million dollar homes.

Broaden thyself, brother. Spend time with some pros.

Or is it that your work is too good for "The Met"?

Barry

[Larry Jaques]

On 15 Nov 2003 13:13:59 -0800, [e-mail] (Phil Crow) brought forth from the murky depths:

Poor Phil. Your taste is all in your mouth. ;)

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[Chris Merrill]

40 or 50 coats? wax required? What are you smoking?

Have you ever _used_ shellac? I have...and never felt the need to do any of these things. 3 coats is the most I have done...gets a nice gloss. A few swipes with steel wool for a satin finish. And NO SANDING between coats! It's _much_ faster to apply.

I have used both in the past...and will use both in the future - every finish has its advantages and disadvantages.

Actually, yes. It was the preferred finish for wood floors for many years. There are different ways to measure longevity. Because shellac bonds with existing coats, a simple cleaning is all that is required prior to adding a new coat. Since shellac does not wear nearly as well as poly, a new coat should be added every year or two. I think my father said that his parents added a new coat to their floors every year. - OTOH - While poly may last longer between coats - the 'refinishing' process is FAR more work. You must sand before adding another coat - and this usually means sanding completely through to the wood. As a result, your floor gets thinner each time. You can refinish a floor in this manner a finite number of times before you run out of wood. This will not be a problem with shellac. And shellac dries in minutes, not hours.

[Phil Crow]

You know, Larry, I just love it when your goat gets got!

In all actuality, my experience with shellac is rather limited. I am, however, going to use bug s*it on my maw-in-law's Christmas present (which I am Neandering, by the way) and very much look forward to the result. I already have some of the pieces cut and thicknessed, and I'll be sure to beg, borrow or steal a digital camera for my first honest-to-goodness shellac-finished project.

BTW, I love the Zencrafters t-shirts.

-Phil Crow

[Silvan]

*Too* much gloss, and I like things to be glassy looking. The way it clings to every single riple and burble of the grain combined with its extremely high gloss really makes things look surreal and downright weird until I knock some of that off with 0000 steel wool, and, yes, wax. I like to wax my stuff, but it isn't *necessary*. I used to wax poly too.

I avoided shellac for *years*. I finally tried a can of that ready-made bullseye stuff, and that's my new finish until I get around to trying something more adventuresome. It's a lot more idiot proof than poly, dries

10,000% faster, and doesn't turn stuff yellow. The only thing I don't like about it is that it's *extremely* unforgiving when it comes to the job you have to do getting the wood ready. It puts the surface under a magnifying glass, and it had better be *smooth* when you start.

[Larry Jaques]

On Sat, 15 Nov 2003 21:21:06 GMT, Tom Watson brought forth from the murky depths:

And how many YEARS? Why do people think finishing is a once in a furniture's lifetime deal?!?

Perhaps you should start wearing masks in the paint shop, Tawm. (But at least you spray it. Brushed poly is usually THICK.)

----------------------------------------------- I'll apologize for offending someone...right after they apologize for being easily offended.

-----------------------------------------------

Inoffensive Web Design

[Larry Jaques]

On Sat, 15 Nov 2003 21:35:17 GMT, B a r r y B u r k e J r . brought forth from the murky depths:

Poly usually equals saran. Nice and thick to "protect" said piece.

I -love- varnish. You misread my statements. It's poly I hate because it is so often abusively applied.

----------------------------------------------- I'll apologize for offending someone...right after they apologize for being easily offended.

-----------------------------------------------

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[Mike G]

After perusing your replies to others regarding the use of varnish as a finish it's obvious you are not only happy in your ignorance about the value of varnish as a finish and how nice it can look when worked properly but you also will continue insist on trying to make that ignorance so me sort of fact.

In that case I'll just let it go. There is little point in talking to a fool.

It is unfortunate that some newbie out there may take you ignorance for actual knowledge but a lot of people tried.

[Mike G]

Hi Phil

I don't use a lot of varnish in my work. I try to make a match/compromise between the protection something needs and the particular "look" I or the person receiving the work wants.

Varnish is a fine finish and I'm not going to dispute that and see no reason why you should have to defend your use of it.

But, at the same time I hope you are not looking at those of us who avoid varnish and only use it if absolutely necessary as shellackeys snobs. It puts you at the same level as Jaques.

I can't speak for others but I avoid it's use because about eighty percent of the time a piece doesn't need all that protection and, since any building finish, when first applied, does have a superficial surface gloss, varnish more so then most, I am compelled to rub out the finish to get the appearance of depth that I feel is lacking.

Frankly, because varnish is as protective as it is, for that eighty five percent of the time the protection is not needed, rubbing it out is just plain to much work for too little a return.

What I am trying to say is please don't become a reverse finishing snob. All finishes have their place and it doesn't take 40 or 50 coats of shellac to give you a very nice finish. Experiment, expand on your finishing tools, and, by all means, try rubbing out a finish and see what it can do for you work.

Good luck

[Larry Jaques]

On 15 Nov 2003 21:32:27 -0800, [e-mail] (Phil Crow) brought forth from the murky depths:

Agreed. Are you confusing me with a certain ex-bugsh*t monger? I've touted oil finishes, including Watco and Waterlox, for more than awhile now, but varnishes (non-urinestain) have always been my favorite buildable finish.

Waterlox'll save you some hassle if you're interested. (Hush, Paddy.)

So buy 5 and get free shipping! Merry Xmas. I have just 3 left in XXL but tons in XL and L.

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[Larry Jaques]

On Sun, 16 Nov 2003 11:57:40 -0500, "Mike G" brought forth from the murky depths:

I don't avoid varnish, just _poly_. RTFMessage, Mikey.

Your other response to me wasn't worth answering, especially since you didn't even answer my question to defend your own statement.

Over and out.

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