Paslode Nail Guns - China

[Kevin]

I got back from a visit to China over the Christams holidays and saw a couple things that speak to the comments below. As to the cost of living - yep, you can live cheap in China. There were about 15 of us at 2 tables in a VERY GOOD restaurant in Guanzhou. All together over 20 dishes and when we were finished there was a good deal of food left over. Cost? - less that $100.00. Also in Guanzhou saw some USB key chain storage units. 128 MB for about $12.00. You can retire in relative comfort for about $200/month there although you will be giving up a few things that most probably see as essential here.

At the same time while crossing a bridge to head home, saw maybe a dozen people selling pirated software. Most was of music and groups I never heard of.

intellectual

[World Traveler]

[snip]

[snip]

Look again. The commercial aircraft you travel in probably has parts from China, built to FAA certification. There are FAA certified aviation production facilities in China, and FAA certified repair stations which draw customers from airlines around the world because of the competency of their work. The computer on which you read this msg probably was at least partially built in China. How's that for differentiating quality and trash?

It isn't the ethnicity of the worker that establishes the quality of a product, it's the design and management decisions made that guide the worker, and the q.c. and management oversight of the production process.

What China has been lacking in is enough capital to build a modernized production base. Much of that capital is being received now from overseas or from counterparts in Taiwan. With enough capital investment, the current Chinese economic boom is just the leading edge of the wave. Regards --

[World Traveler]

That statement won't stand up to inspection. Prisoners do work in China, -- just as they do in the U.S.!! -- but

it's a gross overstatement to say that "a lot" of the exports are prison-produced. Prison products are sold in the local marketplace to raise money to operate the prisons -- to that extent they are self-supporting rather than dependent upon tax dollars.

Things operate differently in China and it's a mistake to take single examples out of context. For example, standard procedure in a hospital is for the patient (or family) to provide the meals; the military grows its own crops; cities and provinces get involved in commercial ventures as profit-making enterprises. Everyone is producing and looking for that edge to make themselves more profitable. The Air Force operates commercial vegetable farms and a commercial airline (China United Airline); Chengdu city was a partner with Hughes to develop the cell telephone network -- for Chengdu city.

But my chief point is that the concern about products made by prison labor is waaay overplayed -- if you were serious why wouldn't you worry about U.S. license plates and street signs?? Regards --

[BillyBob]

How benevolent. . .

Does this include wholesale stealing of intellectual property as well....?

Hmm - must be a bunch of nice guys. . . no chance of rampant corruption in China I take it. . .

BillyB

[Doug Miller]

That's actually a pretty scary thought.

I frankly don't believe that, and won't, unless you furnish proof.

Yes, I'm sure it was, and that probably accounts for the premature failure of various components. The overwhelming majority of failed boards and power supplies that I've seen were made in Communist China. In my experience, those made _anywhere_else_ are much more reliable.

Who said it was? I have _no_problem_ buying tools, electronics, or whatever, made in Taiwan, where the workers are of identical ethnicity to those on the mainland - and the goods they produce are of _markedly_better_ quality.

Yes, indeed - all of which seem to be very sadly lacking in most of the stuff that comes out of the PRC.

No, what China has been lacking, and continues to lack, is an economic system that rewards quality and punishes its absence. And until that system appears, they will continue to produce crap.

-- Regards, Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

Nobody ever left footprints in the sands of time by sitting on his butt. And who wants to leave buttprints in the sands of time?

[Doug Miller]

One major difference is that a substantial fraction of the prison labor force in China is people who were imprisoned for expressing their political or religious beliefs. We don't do that here.

It's also standard procedure for the government to bill the next-of-kin for the cost of the bullet used in executing a political prisoner. So what?

Pretty much standard operating procedure in societies that have been impoverished by decades of Communist rule. Everybody's scrabbling to try to make a yuan, because they have to eat.

How comforting. What's your point?

I don't worry about US license plates and street signs because: a) those products are not in unfair competition with private industry in the consumer marketplace; b) prisoners in the US are not slaves, they're actually paid for their labor; and c) prisoners in the US are in jail because they committed crimes, not because they criticize the government or practice a religion that is not officially approved.

-- Regards, Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

Nobody ever left footprints in the sands of time by sitting on his butt. And who wants to leave buttprints in the sands of time?

[KS]

Exactly correct. But lets not limit our thinking and bias towards workers. Why does American management think they are "better" than their Chinese counterparts and therefore should not be outsourced along with the workers?

I suspect its a simple answer of: Well, but ah....because I'm management and without me running the show here in the US the whole company might as well be in China.......oh ah, wait a minute.... I ah meant to say....

[World Traveler]

[sniip]

The commercial aircraft you travel in probably has parts from

Fair enough. Here's proof, from the FAA's own web site. Go to

Enter country: China and add any major city and you'll see a list of FAA certified repair stations. For example: Shanghai:

CEA HONEYWELL AIRCRAFT WHEELS AND BRAKES REPAIR AN NO 24 LONGJUA AIRPORT SHANGHAI, 200232

COLLINS AVIATION MAINTENANCE SERVICES SHANGHAI LTD GENERAL FACTORY BUILDING 4, FLOOR 1

389 GANG AO ROAD SHANGHAI, 200131

TAIKOO XIAMEN AIRCRAFT ENGINEERING CO LTD SHANGHAI ROOM C3-120 & C3-121 PASSENGER INTERNATIONAL TERMINAL SHANGHAI,

Guangzhou:

GUANGCHOU AIRCRAFT MNTC AND ENGINEERING CO LTD GUANGZHOU NEW BAIYUN INTERNATIONAL AIRPORT GUANGZHOU, 510407

GUANGZHOU HANGXIN AVIONICS COMPANY LTD NO. 2 KEXIN ROAD TIANHE DISTRICT GUANGZHOU, 510665

plus Xian, Beijing, etc.

And of course, there's HAECO, which has had previous contracts maintaining USAF C-130s.

As for aircraft parts, Douglas started using Chinese components made in Shanghai about 25 years ago, starting with nosewheel landing gear doors. There's a quarter-of-a-century of a track record with FAA certification in that location alone.

Your knee-jerk response to questions of Chinese competency indicates you've got some other agenda --

Regards --

[World Traveler]

Reference to "Xian" should be "Xiamen". Xiamen is a major repair station; Xian is the Chinese flight test center.

The growth in Chinese aviation is phenomenal. In 1983 there was one national airline; in 1986 there were 40, and 102 new major airfields. To staff these, China is sending as many students as possible to overseas schools, especially locations such as Embry-Riddle.

All of this is being driven by the resurgence of Chinese capital markets policies and the profit motive. None of this has anything to do with woodworking, except that if you visit Chinese specialty stores you'll find solid, well-built, (if not technologically advanced) woodworking tools that Chinese craftsmen use to turn out extraordinary wood products.

And you've completely danced around the real question -- if Chinese tools are so inferior, how is it that Chinese craftsmen do such good work???

[Rob Spear]

well with all the fus, i've been a paslode person for about 8 or 9 years now and have 3 guns and i will only buy a paslode gun for its quality as they have aways been rated a good gun.

as far as i know from about 9 years ago there was one model i was told to stay away from and i got that info from a person who worked in the main office and they did have some problems with that model, however with a inside person telling me that up front i knew what i was looking for and i thank that person yet today.

so there's only one name for me and thats PASLODE........say what you wish about them but here's my 2 cents worth.

[Lee DeRaud]

[snip]

Heh. A few years back my neighbor gave me a ration of shit for "not buying American" when I traded in my Canadian-assembled Oldsmobile for an Acura...made in Ohio.

Lee

[USENET READER]

You think that some CEO oughta be able to inflate his salary by cutting the salaries of US workers?

How many days a week do you work? Uni>

[USENET READER]

You are a tool if you think that management is worth more than the hands that build the tools!

[USENET READER]

Like quality health care, democracy, freedom of speech, etc. Can't wait to see how fast Bush starts to force retirees to move to China to make their SOcial Security checks go further - wait until you live next to a chicken slaughter house and come down with SARS.

[George]

Therein lies the problem. You can demand, or you can seek. Which is more productive?

We demand, they seek - and work.

[skeezics]

It doe's and no i am not!

The

agreed

There really is no reason

this is also true

I have to say, high union labor is running more jobs off to over

possibly

It aint rocket science to build a nail gun and yet the

Well; living wage plays a part here. It cost a lot more to live here than it does there. lets not forget that! And ummm... do ya think that

300 dollar nail gun is gonna get any cheeper just because pasload gets it built cheeper in china? I think not. More likely upper management will get a great big attaboy and a raise for being so wise with our jobs and stock holders will see a larger profit from their investment. meanwhile joe blue collar gets to look for his next job. probly for less money and fewer benefites. gee son sorry bout your college education fund but some chinaman needs that money more than we do. unfortunatly the more jobs that are lost by this practice the less money that will be spent to buy product and sooner or later this buisness practice will bite us on the ass.

skeez

[J. Clarke]

Well, let's see. What do those hands do when the parts don't arrive? What do they do when the finished product is standing in a pile at the end of the assembly line? What do they do when one of the machines on the line goes down? Which one of them sends out the bills to the customers?

Sorry, the Russians thought it was that simple and shot all the managers. They still haven't recovered.

[Larry Jaques]

On Thu, 28 Apr 2005 22:32:17 GMT, the inscrutable "World Traveler" spake:

Poor Doug probably thinks Global Warming is real, the War on Drugs is doing some good, DDT and silicone implants were killers, low-fat diets were safe, bullets should be serialized for ID, cholesterol from eggs will kill you, O.J. and Jackson are innocent, the war in Iraq is necessary, and, um, that the DHS is making America SAFE!

I've seen more stories (and video) on happy Chinese workers than I have on prison labor tactics.

--== May The Angst Be With You! ==-- -Yoda, on a bad day --

Ending Your Web Page Angst.

[J. Clarke]

Only thing any union ever did for me was negotiate a pay cut.

[Duane Bozarth]

World Traveler wrote: ...

...

Not necessarily...simply being uninformed is more likely the culprit.