OT: Tom you incorrect in -You Know You Don't Live In California When.

[TeamCasa]

Most of the people who do the making and baking - the hunting and

>fishing - the child raising and life making - the saving and the >scraping to get by - don't live in urban areas.

Sorry Tom, you are incorrect.

Urban areas do define the course of a country. People thought history have congregated with others. They gather to make a living, shop, worship, govern, work in areas like manufacturing, shipping and the like. Where does the farmer or rancher sell their efforts? Where in modern history has a rural people forced a nation or people to change? Governments are permitted to exist by the urban people.

A staggering 80% of the country lives in a urban area. (Source

) The important things are simple. Parents are, and should be, the ones trusted with the responsibility to raise their children to become good the future leaders, solid citizens with a solid moral base. And, importantly, to become future parents and leaders.

We [as parents] do have more influence than we think. How many times have you asked, "How could any parent let their kid out of the house looking/dressed like that!" The young girls with the short shirts that remind me of a roll of busted poppin' fresh dough. Spiked hair, pants hanging half way down their butts, ect. Will these kids grow to govern us? We have the responsibility to teach and guide them down a different path than the correct path.

Tom also said...

People in urban areas don't hold the same values as those who live >outside those areas. They never have - and they never will. >There are still vast areas of this country where a man's word is his >bond - won't see that much on TV. There are still huge sectors of our >country where a neighbor will be helped out of common human decency - >but I don't see that reflected in that media mirror.

Although this may have some modicum of truth, the entertainment/news industry does what every other business does, sell its product. It is the height of naivetivity to think that a small group will ever stop the making of such fine film classics as "Chain saw..., ect." You and for the most part I, do not like what is on local television. Yet they sell their product day after day because more people watch than don't. If everyone in the all of the rural areas stopped watching or going to the movies, they would still prosper.

I live in a suburb of Los Angeles. I hunt, fish, build things and have raised my children to become a strong part of society. I work to earn an income to support my family. I employ many others so they can raise their families. I sell products people need and want. I provide a service that people need in our society. I don't believe that my moral outrage towards the what I believe are the degenerate segments of our combined cultures provides me the right to disallow them, only the right to educate my family and the people in my sphere of influence as to the direction I believe is correct.

I and a staggering number of urbanites do hold the same set of values as those who by choice or circumstance live in rural areas. It is only in ignorance or arrogance that you and other ruralities believe you are alone sit atop the moral mountain.

Tom finished by saying...

I still meet good people - and I meet them in all kinds of places - but the >culture (writ large) that I live in - doesn't give them the respect or >encouragement that they deserve. This saddens me greatly.

Cheer up Tom, you could have been born in a country that is under the scourge of a repressive government, or one that prohibits free expression of religion or one that can not even provide you with clean water or one that by law, limits the number and sex of your children or one that murder, rape and kidnapping are not just headlines but a way of life or one that the put you in the position of considering, will I be able to feed my children today?

Dave

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[Tom Watson]

Yeah, my wife says the same thing - almost every day.

I think that there must be a sociological concept akin to that of critical mass in nuclear physics. Once you get beyond a certain population density, things begin to go wrong quickly. Once a local population has reached the level where anonymous interactions are typical - the social compact goes all to hell.

Agreed.

Their prosperity is not my concern. The fact that the media is a reflection of an urban outlook on life is my concern.

I applaud your efforts. I deplore the obstacles that geography has put in your path.

I only wish that it was a mountain. It is more like a sea. We are not sitting above anything but would like to keep our area of the sea free from certain effluents. Given the interactive nature of a sea - this is extremely difficult.

One litterbox at a time.

Thomas J. Watson-Cabinetmaker (ret) Real Email is: tjwatson1ATcomcastDOTnet Website:

[J.B. Bobbitt]

Jeremy Rifkin, in his book "The Hydrogen Economy" points out that people began to cluster together in cities because of the way that commodities, in particular bio-fuels and fossil fuels, were distributed. The energy supplies were brought to central location (a port, an overland trade route, &tc.), and distributed from there. It was just esier to live close by, hence high-density population centers.

An interesting corollary is that, if we could produce energy at decentralized locations (e.g. wind, hydrogen fuel cells, etc.), it wouldn't make sense to live in high-density centers; we could spread out.

-JBB

[bridger]

also interesting... that technology will be developed in densely populated areas, probably ones with large universities....

[George]

Ass-backwards. They brought firewood to the city because that's where the buyers were, they didn't cluster in the city because they brought firewood there. Didn't have to "distribute" it to the boondocks, they had their own. Then, as many US historians have mentioned, there's corn. Tough to get to market in bulk over a trail, but easy if you feed it to livestock which walks or distill into high-value compact whiskey.

"Urban Sprawl" is the direction the US took. You and Rifkin need to look overhead at those towers delivering electricity everywhere. If you still don't believe, get into your automobile (alone, like everyone else) and drive along the ever-increasing road web to what used to be country. There you will discover single-family dwellings everywhere, and the occasional metal-sided industrial facility built on cheaper, less-regulated land using electricity delivered by those same wires, and goods delivered over those same roads by those trucks you're dodging. You might even cross an abandoned railroad right-of-way or puzzle over the remains of an old dock on a modest bridged stream.

[Charles Spitzer]

i would think it was for defense and food distribution. cities came about long before fuels were distributed.

[CW]

Not the case but it fits his theme. Cities formed because that is were the work was.

[Charlie Self]

snip of great country experiences

I agree, with a proviso: I sometimes think that a couple of years of true city living is a great thing for a young person. I had mine in New York many years ago, and a similar experience may be impossible in today's world, which would be unfortunate. 85 bucks a week working for a tiny ad agency, $2 cover charge to sit at Gerde's Folk City and listen to all the big, and small, names as that trend was rising to the surface (including Victoria's Secret's Bob Dylan), riding on the Staten Island ferry to take a girlfriend home, walking in Central Park at midnight (yeah, yeah, I know this is impossible without a squad now, but 41 years ago, a single former Marine could amble through without problems), walking up Park Avenue and watching the rich people glow in their own minds, doing all the other things youngsters do and adding in mostly free access to many of the world's greatest museums...cheap twofers on and off Broadway, and on.

Charlie Self "Adam and Eve had many advantages but the principal one was that they escaped teething." Mark Twain

[Chipper Wood]

Just to add my experiences on country living.

20 years ago I found a nice parcel 1 1/2 miles from the main road, situated at the end of a private road. Only about 10 of the 36 parcels were occupied. Peace, beauty and security were enjoyed.

Slowly others from the cities moved in to all the remaining parcels. Now they all install alarm systems, Some have barred their windows, lock their doors and vehicles. Night-lights dot the evening landscape. Strangers frequent the area. One newcomer who bought a house just 10 feet from the road, installed speed bumps because he feared speeding cars. Litter is frequently tossed from cars entering or leaving. Fencing along the narrow road edges has appeared. All the drivers you meet on the one lane areas assumes the 'right-of-way. No trespassing signs prevail. Shots are heard after dark and the deer are becoming scarce.

Why do they leave the city ?