OT:...sort of. Productivity in retirement.

[Robatoy]

I just listened to a bunch of callers to a radio show, which dealt with the recent passing of a law that out-laws forced retirement. A guy can now keep his job past 65 if he wants to and is able. What I found interesting, was the polarity between opinions. On one end of the spectrum, young callers wanted the old guard to make room for them. On the other end, people suggested that experience is a good thing to have in a business. Being who I am, I immediately thought of a guy taking a swig of his Malox bottle and gumming his microphone: "This is your captain speaking, I think....let's get this box in the air, because it is time for my nap."

My wife thinks that old doctors are great at "I have seen this before", but that new doctors are better informed of new methods to threat those problems. ( I vote for keeping them both.)

New engineers, like my neighbour, apply new materials, the old guys still use rivets..(so to speak)

Nothing compares to an experienced hand using a scraper or fitting a dove-tail. (

[Leon]

You should work as long as you productive and want to. Making room for the younger guys is just another form of affirmative action. If the young guy wants your position he can work for it and pay his dues just like you did and the guy before you.

[Upscale]

Maybe, but with the mandatory retirement eliminated, the young guy is likely going to have to pay more dues than you did to get somewhere. I'm kind of ambivalent to this change of retirement. It's fine for those people who really are productive and can make a positive contribution for some time to come, but I know damned well, there's going to be people who will insist on staying on even though they're long past the stage of contributing anything worthwhile. Various unions already do that for their members. With the mandatory retirement eliminated, it's going to be a tremendous struggle to get some people out.

[bf]

Great point.. There's some productive older workers, but there's also some that start coasting in their last 5 years or so. If they could continue to work, knowing that they could retire at any time, I imagine a lot of the lazy ones would hang on another 5 years doing nothing but collecting a paycheck. Note, not all are lazy, but some are.

[Pat Barber]

Never fear, the FAA "forces" them to quit at age 60, no exceptions.

Robatoy wrote:

[Teamcasa]

In my mind it has more to do with individual productivity. Regardless of age, if an employee is productive, read that to mean they are an asset to the company, then they will have secure employment. As soon as they become a liability, there value has to be re-evaluated.

OTOH, employees with a long tenure should be given greater latitude when determining their value.

Dave

[Warren Weber]

DON"T retire. I did in 1983 and there is not enough hours in the day to do all the things I want to. W W

[DonkeyHody]

Sorry, but you struck a nerve here. I don't know where people get the notion that they are entitled to advancement. It's a free market economy, and when the overall quality of life looks better in another job, I'll leave the employer I've loved for 26 years now. But the quality of life doesn't look better in another job, so I'm staying put. As long as I'm here, I feel like I owe them the loyalty to not whine about my pay or my working conditions, or my boss (not that I have anything to complain about).

There will always be people standing between us and some goal. The boss that's holding him back is probably making the company money in more intangible ways than he'll ever know, focused on himself as he is. IT'S NOT ABOUT YOU!

Because I was fortunate enough to go to college, I was placed in a position of authority over men near retirement age when I was not yet thirty. I'm glad I was able to value their wisdom and experience, because they could have sabotaged my whole career by simply keeping their knowledge to themselves instead of sharing it with me. There's no substitute for 20 years of experience. I believed it then and I believe it even more now.

If that young man will concentrate on learning what he can from that boss instead of hoping he'll get out of the way, the promotions will take care of themselves, and he'll ultimately rise higher.

DonkeyHody "A dwarf on giant's shoulders can see the farther of the two." - George Herbert

[RonB]

A few years ago the parent of the aerospace firm I worked for started positioning us for a sale. They brought in a hatchet-man and new executive staff and started cutting heads. It became immediately evident that they were cutting seniority first. That is where the highest wages and benefit values are.

Out went hundreds of years of knowledge and skill. Many were given severance packages, low-cost medical and they started their pensions.

A few months later many of these old farts showed up again earning $70 to $100 per hour as contractors while pulling pensions.

MBA's prevail again!!!

RonB

[Rod & Betty Jo]

30 or so years ago (I was 23) I started a Janitorial/carpet cleaning service....physical work requiring lots of hustle. Along came a nice old timer (I thought in his 60's) whom had seen my yellow page ad and looked me up because we had the same last name. He asked about doing my window accounts (at that time I did all of my own) so I politely took his name and number but figured "you gotta be kidding" after all it requires ladders, roofs, climbing, reaching, working at a near run and definitely to compete a spring to the step. A short time later I had quick uptick of construction cleanup and temporary residential demand....so what the heck I gave the old Norwegian a call...turns out he was 75 with 50 years experience...not only could I not keep up with him but I learned much....he actually moved bit slower but was much more effective with the steps he took.....he worked quite well till he was 78 and a heart attack slowed him...after a slow recuperation he wondered if he could do a few janitorial accounts since his doctor wouldn't let him wash windows anymore (his health really didn't allow that either).....twas a sad but touching day when he gave his window bucket and glass cleaning tools...he wouldn't sell them(I tried) but wanted to pass them along to me..... over the years I had many a younger employee who could not hold a candle to John.....discrimination for anything other than merit is both wrong and stupid.....Rod

[Leon]

Do the pilots have to quit or can they work as an attendant, or baggage handler or some thing else airline related?

[Leon]

LOL, both of us having automotive back grounds we have similar opinions here. The older employee may not be as productive but his wisdom and experience is a valuable asset that can have a positive effect on productivity that not every one recognizes.

[Allen Roy]

But what does one do when in you are in a position like mine.

I have been working for a company now for 7 years. I am next in line for senior management and my boss is about 6 years from retirement. He is one of the one's you could very much call a coaster. His knowledge is invaluable and knows people that I would love to hear a simple "hello" from.

The problem is that he drinks like a fish at work. Yes the owners and other upper management are aware of the situation. He has been attending AA meetings for a quite awhile but with very little improvement. Now I don't want someone's career ended in such a way. The owners are reluctent to do much more. We can't find any qualified people to fill the open positions we have, but yet I am looking forward to his retirement. I am dreading next Fridays meeting as I will have to drop the bomb to the fact of his recent escapades.

What is a company to do. I believe that the owners privately are hoping they can coast this out until his retirement. If they are forced to let him stay, it makes this situation worse. I don't want his position but I am compelled to report his behavior. I find it wrong not to. And yes I don't wan't his job as I would feel like a huge gigantic Fir tree in the middle of a lumber farm just waiting for the axe to start swinging.

If I could find a cabinet shop that can pay me what I make now, then I would be set.

Allen

[Mark & Juanita]

... snip

Sounds like a good friend of ours. He once made the comment, "I retired

10 years ago and I'm so busy now I don't know how I ever had time for work!"

+--------------------------------------------------------------------------------+ If you're gonna be dumb, you better be tough

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[Mark & Juanita]

... and you know the really sad part? It makes "sense" when you look at from whence the different "buckets" of money come. Pensions come out of the "Pension Fund" that is completely separate from the rest of the workings of the organization in question. As contract laborers, more than likely little or no overhead or benefits are assigned to the people who come back, thus they are "cheaper" than full-time employees. So, the division comes out ahead even though when you add up all the costs they are higher.

You would think someone, somewhere would be adding all this stuff up and support making decision that resulted in lower total costs. That doesn't seem to happen.

Government thinking is even more convoluted and thus overall more expensive than the private sector.

+--------------------------------------------------------------------------------+ If you're gonna be dumb, you better be tough +--------------------------------------------------------------------------------+

[Larry Blanchard]

I don't know a single retiree who hasn't said that, including me! Seems that as soon as we retire, we slow down Not on purpose, it just seems to happen. Of course, there is that little nap after lunch :-).

[Edwin Pawlowski]

I have no plans to retire fully. I'm 61, and my boss, the owner is 62. He has no plans to ever retire fully either. Of course, our circumstances are much different than most people in the workforce. The company has about 20 employees, many have been there 10+ years (18 for me, longer than anyone) and are completely loyal as everyone is treated so well.

First of all, I don't think of what I do as "work". I actually enjoy going to the plant every day and interacting with my co-workers. I don't have any set hours. I can come and go as I please. No one questions what I do. As a company, we have a simple philosophy that has worked very well. Make the customer happy, give them a good product, on time, with efficiency so we make a profit.

We do have an occasional staff meeting. The last one involved the owner and all the managers. We discussed important topics such as what we will be doing on our trip to Las Vegas, who is driving to the airport, what will the wives do while we are at a seminar, what shows do you want to see, etc.

Perhaps some day I'll cut back to 4 days, then three days, but I have no reason to leave. It is just too much fun. I'm sure my attitude would be different if I spent my day screwing handles on toasters on the assembly line every day.

[Frank Stutzman]

They can certainly take other flight positions. Flight engineers (although with automation that job is fading away). The FAA has this concept of 'pilot in command' and for some archaic reason they feel pilots over 60 arn't capable of this.

Al Haynes was the captain of the infamous United flight 232 that crashed in Sioux City in 1989. 110 people died in that accident. The fact that 175 survived is amazing. Crash investigators determined that the plane had sustained such damage as to make it un-landable. Captain Haynes was forced to retire later that year simply because he was turning 60. What a waste of talent and skills.

-- Frank Stutzman Bonanza N494B "Hula Girl" Hood River, OR

[Mark & Juanita]

I worked on the farm with my granddad, he was in his early 80's when I graduated from college. I wasn't a weakling, but there were things he could do at 83 that I couldn't do at 22. Came from raising a family on the Eastern Colorado plains during the Depression and Dustbowl I suspect, as well as having grown up with the mechanical age and using horses before that.

+--------------------------------------------------------------------------------+ If you're gonna be dumb, you better be tough +--------------------------------------------------------------------------------+

[lwasserm]

Working for a government agency, I see this happen quite frequently. In fact, there are some employees who start "coasting" much earlier in their career, like, say, about 25 years before they retire.