OT: Linux Troll

[Tom Watson]

OBWW - I use my computer to draw, cutlist, research, price, photoshop, etc. stuff for wooddorking and even use it to read the Wreck from time to time.

I ask this here because I know there are a bunch of guru types on the Wreck, and they, being fellow wooddorkers, will not steer me wrong.

I am in the midst of getting a new laptop and that is going remarkably unwell ( see supra ).

I was wondering, having seen the fat content of Win XP Pro, as delivered with a 2.4 ghz desktop box that I put in place a few months ago - and having wiped the drive and put on Win 98 SE in its place - might I be able to relieve myself of the MShackles entirely and put on this Linux that I have heard so much about?

I am particularly enamoured of the concept of small footprint and small overhead. Win XP, in both its Pro and Home variations, is quite the hog.

I currently run MS Office 2000, PhotoShop v. 4.0, TurboCad v.5.1, AutoCad v. 2000, Eudora Pro v. 5.1, Forte Agent v. 1.7, Norton Utilities v. ?, Norton AntiVirus v. ?.

I must be able to hook into my office network and get on Axapta.

Will I be able to communicate to my MS based brethren, particularly in regards to Word, Excel, Powerpoint, and Access?

I await the common wisdom.

And thank you in advance for its lack of commonness.

Thomas J. Watson-Cabinetmaker (ret) Real Email is: tjwatson1ATcomcastDOTnet Website:

[""jward"]

Linux systems are hard to set up for newbies. When I started, it took me while to learn how to use it because it is so different from Windows. You can get distributions (redhat, mandrake) that make this easier, but it is never quite as easy to begin on as windows. You can learn in a day, however, and once you do, you will love it. As far as all the programs you use, you don't need antivirus tools because Unix systems (Linux is a version of Unix) are basically immune to them.

Linux has a very good photoshop replacement called Gimp that I actually prefer to photoshop. As far as Autocad programs, I am not too sure about them. Maybe someone else here knows if they exist. By the way, Linux has a lot of programs that read and write microsoft formats. OpenOffice, for example, is a good Word substitute.

-Jonathan Ward

[Rob Walters]

I'm sure you'll get better answers, but I'll toss in what I know...

There is an Office equivalent...Open Office will run on Linux or Windows and with a few small quirks open almost any Word, Excel or PowerPoint document. Its a little different then what you're used to in Office, in some good and bad ways. You have to be willing to let someone move your cheese :) I don't think there is an Access equivalent in the Open Source world, but I'm sure Silvan or someone with more knowledge than I can fill you in there.

As for mail clients, I'm sure some of the more hardcore *nix guys will laugh, but I really like Ximian Evolution. It has a lot of neat features and will do most everything that Lookout Exploit or Eudora will do with some more advanced features thrown in too. I know it comes with most of the newer distributions, but I'm running SUSE here at the house (sorry, I'm a Novell fan).

Can't speak for the CAD programs as I'm not quite up to that point in my wooddorking endeavours. But I can say that, for the most part, you needn't worry too much about anti-virus as most of the script-kiddies out there know that most of the world runs on Windows. I believe AVG has a freeware version of their AV software for Linux, but don't quote me on that.

There are also several different Photoshop equivalents out there...I've used gimp for editing pics, but I'm nowhere as advanced as SWMBO...you'd have to pry Photoshop out of her cold dead hands.

My suggestion...install it on a spare/older PC and see if you like it. I have my personal PC at home set up with both Linux and WinXP. Games run much better on XP (ATI does a crappy job of supporting Linux) but everything else I prefer to do in Linux.

And yes, I know I'm posting this from Lookout Exploit, but I gotta use what "the man" gives me at work.

Rob

Its free!

[Allen Epps]

Tom, Given what you do with the confuser I would seriously look at a Mac. Office for the Mac is fully compatible, there's plenty of non-outlook mail programs and newsreaders, versions of Norton etc Lots of graphic and design programs including Photoshop. I'll stand by for the flames but It's damn pleasant to look at the virus and system compromise issues the Windows world is facing form where I sit. The iMac I'm working on now is five years old and I basically do exactly what you do with a computer. Other than adding some RAM it works fine. Allen Catonsville, MD

Asbestos underwear on!

[Larry Blanchard]

Tom, I haven't used Linux in a while, although it used to be my primary development platform, but it is my understanding that its only deficiency is in games.

There is a package called StarOffice that mimics MS Office. There are CAD packages, but I don't know how compatible. And its networking is why Linux powers a lot of Internet servers.

And you won't need anti-virus software :-).

I keep swearing to go back to it, but I just haven't got to the point of taking the time.

And it will take more time. It's not as simple as installing Windoze, but it's a lot more flexible.

Customer service is as close as Usenet and if all else fails you've got the source :-).

[RKON]

The answer to your dilemma is win 2000. I have used win2k for several years and it is stable. On another machine I have XP and cannot stand it. You will better off with win 2000 (w2k) with all of your software. You will not have any issues with drivers because if they have a driver for XP than it will work on w2k.

There is a great website out there that will tell you how to turn off the crap in XP and w2k. It is called Black Viper.

guy has done a great job in documenting most of the crap in windows XP and w2k.

Were you glad u got Rid of win98? I dropped it like a bad habit. The laptop from which I write this email came with win98 and a year ago I wiped it out and upgraded the os to win 2000. It has word, ppt, xls, Norton av, Diskeeper, and other stuff. It runs great on 320mb RAM and an old P3 266mhz . I had all sorts of issues with lockups and the LCD blinking. Since I upgraded to win2k. Notta problem. I was going to replace it ( Toshiba Satellite PRO 4300) and I did not since the upgrade. I have been thinking of replacing it with RedHat 9 but have not gotten around to it. There really is no need to yet.

I use Linux daily in my job and I would not recommend it based on the programs you have. There are great alternatives ( Open Office, Ximian, star Office etc.) But it would be a major upheaval to you daily routine. I can hear the Linux Purist's now. If you insist on kicking the tries I would recommend you try it on your old machine once you get the Dell snafu (BTW, why don't you canx the order?)resolved.

Or, try installing linux on a VmWare. Cool stuff that allows you to run your windows applications and switch to a full Linux OS running inside of windows or you can switch to full screen Linux. Real Cool stuff if you feel technically challenged.

HTH Rich

[CW]

Since nobody is addressing this paticular issue, I will throw in that you can just resign yourself to either switching cad programs, get a Windows emulator or give it up.

[Eugene]

like KDE and Gnome have as many features as the windows desktop or more. You have openoffice and Koffice as well as other office type apps to choose from. You can open, edit and save pdf's just fine. Programs like dia and kivio are decent drawing programs, Gimp is a very nice photo type editor. I have tried out a couple CAD programs so far.

Linux gives you choice, with windoes your limited to the little differences between the 9x and NT based systems. Mac your stuck with their os and hardware. Linux you can use different distributions, you can use different hardware, you can have different desktops. Choose your flavor, your color. Windows and MAC you can have any color you want as long as its black :) i.e you have to do it their way.

Linux now is no more difficult to install that windows and there is plenty of documentation on the internet, not just the copies of the support pages from Microsoft.

[mp]

Yeah, but it's still a Mac. Tonka toy interface, one button mouse, hardly any software, and slow. And expensive.

[mp]

My experience is completely different. I find XP inherently more stable and reliable the W2k, and so do all of my clients.

[Tom Watson]

I had 2000 on a box for a bit. It was pig slow just like all the NT based OS stuff that I have tried. I think these things are great for IT guys but slow down a single user.

That's my big problem with XP. It's big and it's slow. When I rolled the new desktop back to 98 SE, it ran much faster.

Apps loaded faster. Switching between apps was faster. Boot and shut down was faster.

None of them boot as fast as DOS and DOS didn't boot as fast as CPm.

I know that the new OS models have more to do - but they do a lot of crap that I don't want them to do.

Thomas J. Watson-Cabinetmaker (ret) Real Email is: tjwatson1ATcomcastDOTnet Website:

[McQualude]

Try it. Linux is very easy to install. What is difficult is making changes afterward... What you will find is that no one will give you

100% of the answer you need and no man page will have 100% of the answer. You will spend hours researching the most simple answers, such as 'Why did my USB mouse work after installation but not after a reboot?' Linux is still a geek OS, it is for people who want their OS to be their hobby.

Download Knoppix and burn it to a CD. That should give you a good idea if you want to go further with Linux.

I am particularly enamoured of the concept of small footprint and

Linux is not faster than XP. Linux is not less bloated than XP, if anything it can be worse. Most distros install everything including the kitchen sink, but that's not necessarily bad because it gives you lots of doodads to play with.

maybe

Try Knoppix.

[Eugene]

On my hardware it runs a lot faster. Now I will agree/admin Redhat is not faster but they seem to have to mess with everything, other distros are much faster (I tried a couple until I decided).

[Doug Winterburn]

In addition, RedHat is going subscription enterprise only at the end of this month, but are recommending Fedora for folks who are as cheap as I am. Currently running RH9 with Ximian Desktop 2, but soon will have to decide on Fedora or Suse (Novell). Since Novell also owns Ximain, Suse may be it.

As always, the biggest hurdle in any change is "change".

-Doug

[Tom Wojeck]

Tom,

I've worked with Linux in development environments and found it to be a good alternative. Installation, however, can still be pretty tricky, and I think you will have trouble finding something that can work with Access.

[J. Clarke]

Since the Mac is a BSD box you've just said that *nix has a Tonka toy interface, hardly any software, and is slow. Is that what you intended?

[Steve Dunbar]

MS Access will probably be a problem. Codeweavers' Crossover Office lets you run some Windows programs, such as Word and Excel, in Linux. There is an Autocad clone called Intellicad which may be possible to run in Linux using the WINE Windows emulator. Two of the Intellicad distributors (Bricsnet and Progesoft) are currently beta-testing Linux versions. There are a number of Linux CAD programs, most of them pretty rudimentary. See Phrostie's Cad-Tastrafy site for more information on these: .

Linux can be tricky to set up on a laptop. There's a site called "Linux on Laptops," or something like that, with information on various models of laptops.

The suggestion to try Knoppix is a good one. Knoppix needs no installation--it runs directly from CD. It's pretty good at automatically detecting your hardware and setting itself up appropriately.

[Mark & Juanita]

... and even worse if you are using a network server for data storage. NT box at work would take a second to save a 5 meg file. It was "upgraded" to a faster processor and Win2000. It now takes about 15 to

20 seconds to save that same 5 meg file. Problem is, that 5 meg file is a file for an organizer (Keynote). The file is saved every time a change is made and I navigate away from the application. If switching between that app and a file it points to (one of the purposes of that application), I wind up twiddling my thumbs more than doing work. I finally wound up saving the file locally -- not a good thing, because local files don't get backed up in our setup.

IT folks have looked into it, their answer is that W2k is just slow on network transactions.

[Kevin B]

If you're going to make the switch to Open source, try NetBSD

. Very small foot print, effecient, much more secure by default than Linux and much steeper learning curve. There's no fancy GUI to help you through the install--real primative, like foresaking power tools and using only hand tools. I made the leap to BSD a few years ago when many Linux distros started getting "hoggy". My home NetBSD firewall runs on a 486 with 32 megs of ram and a 512meg hard drive. I think it has about 18 months uptime by now.

Either Linux or BSD will have LOTS of free software for you to try. You'll have to figure out what you need.

On the other hand, and please don't take this as a flame, if you can't perfromance tune XP and make it run really well on a P4, you may not be the right type for Linux or BSD.

Also of interest, the new Mac OS X is based on FreeBSD. Unforunately, based on my experience with my wifes Mac G4, it is the biggest RAM hog I have ever seen. My wifes G4 boots up using 300 megs with no applications launched! Despite the ineffecencies, OS X is a decent operating system, and it's good to see Apple scrap the junk they were selling in favor of (finally) a decent operating system.

FYI and FWIW, I manage 11 technicians/engimeers and we administer about 350 servers for several differnet clients. 70% Windows NT/2K, some Novell, the rest are UNIX with a few Linux and about 20 BSD boxes. In truth, I'd rather be woodworking for a living.

My opinions. Take what you want and leave the rest.

kevin B.

[mp]

XP is a resource hog, that's for sure. You need at least a P4 and 512mb+. Anything less, especially ram, seriously compromises performance.

It really depends on the application. If you want performance, there's a much higher ceiling with XP. Dual processors, Raid, up to 4gb ram. Almost all my graphics clients are running dual processor XP boxes stuffed full of ram. Yet many corporate clients still run W98 desktop boxes and don't plan to upgrade anytime soon. For word processing, spreadsheets, a bit of graphics, and email, they're just fine.

At least there's some choice in OS's available. Most desktop business users are better served by Microsoft, with graphics users it's a toss-up between Mac and PC, and Linux a strong alternative running on various platforms.