Do you know Frank Church by chance? He's one of the folks from over in
the fly fishing newsgroup who was a 97 and then 135 boomer. I was just
one of those guys sucking up underneath on the drogue in an EA-6B
That's quite an interesting statement. You believe Bush is evil
incarnate but FDR was a great man. Just to remind you :
1) FDR ordered the internment of 10's of thousands of *American Citizens*
of Japanese descent. Without trial. Without due process. Without
reparations. Without protest from the media.
2) Under FDR's watch, German submariners were tortured *to death*. Just to
see if they had any interesting information.
3) Under FDR's watch, German infiltrators were *shot* when captured on
American soil. Not imprisoned, not questioned, not held without
communication or access to lawyers, but shot after appearing before a
*military* court. In that case, FDR's government, and the Supreme court
(that he had previously packed) argued that the military had such power.
Note that one of those German infiltrators claimed to be a US citizen. The
case was Ex Parte Quirin, the German saboteurs case. In World War II, eight
German naval officers, one of whom claimed to be a U.S. citizen, landed
secretly in the United States and were arrested. After trial by a military
tribunal, seven were executed. The Supreme Court held that because they
were members of the enemy armed forces, the military had jurisdiction (as
it did over members of our own armed forces) to try them. The Court said
that military jurisdiction was permissible because the defendants were
"admitted enemy invaders."
4) FDR oversaw wage and price controls
5) FDR oversaw rationing and restrictions on what Americans could buy. Now,
this was in a time of war, but just imagine if Bush were to have tried the
6) A number of historians are beginning to postulate that the policies
implemented by FDR during the depression actually served to deepen and
prolong the depression rather than alleviate it. One example, the 90%
income tax on those who were succeeding stifled any recovery as those who
"prospered" were penalized to the point of not finding being able to grow
7) FDR deliberately mislead the news media (and members of the news media
deliberately and willingly did not report) information regarding his health
and physical condition.
Had Bush done any or all of the above, this would have caused the press
and the left to raise howls of indignation and cries for impeachment. Yet,
to the left, FDR is a hero and a great man. Truly amazing.
If you're gonna be dumb, you better be tough
There are just a few little differences between WWII and the Depression, and
the current mideast war. Just for starters, we were attacked in 1941 by
enemies with armies and fleets. The country actually mobilized and
committed effort and resources to the war effort and won in just a few
years. The terrism war which started for us on 9/11 has already gone on
longer than our participation in WWII. And in fact, it had already been
going on for years. As for the Depression, I guess you would have preferred
to have Herbert Hoover continue as president? He was clueless and inept.
FDR was elected in the depth of Hoover's mess and in fact did get it cleared
up. Go to the FDR Memorial in DC.
Actually, no. They were executed (possibly by firing squad, I don't
after FDR died. So it wasn;t completely on his watch, though I don't
suppose the outcome would have been any different if he had
They wre not shot *when captured* but rather, as you later made clear,
after trial and after exhausting their appeals and they were
by counsel at trial (I think) and on appeal (certainly).
If you will read the Constitution you will find that the Congress (not
Commander-in-Chief) is granted authority to create courts martials or
tribunals for the purpose of trials such as those referred to above.
HIstorically the Congress did so in the Articles of War, which
much of the details of those commissions to the Commander-in-Chief.
In ex parte Quirin the USSC held that the Commissions established by
FDR, and the sentences were consistant with the intent of the Congress
as expressed in the Articles of War. The Federal courts also heard
at least one appeal from, (upholding the conviction) thewar crimes
of Japanese General. It is clear that the courts have had jurisdiction
to hear appeals from military trils even of foreign nationals even
The Articles of War were repealed in 1949 and replaced with the
UCMJ. The Commander-in-Chief no longer has the same degree of
latitude as previously. Military Commissions are now required to
conform much more closely to the standards of the Federal
FDR did not 'pack' the USSC. When the USSC struck down some New Deal
legislation one of the proposals was to expand the membership of the
so that FDR _could_ 'pack' the Court by appointing new justices
having to wait for the sitting Justices to retire. However, that did
I certainly agree that FDR's treatment of the nisei was aggregious.
I don't think Bush is evil. In my eyes Cheney is definitely evil - be it
torturing prisoners, spying on Americans, falsified intelligence, outed CIA
agents, war profiteering by contractors - those trails all lead back to
Cheney. I'd call DeLay evil too - he's hell bent on selling the US to the
highest corporate bidders and viciously destroying the careers of those who
question him, yet he sings louder than anyone else does in his church on
Sundays. Like I said earlier, Bush is the face man for the administration.
I do think he's doing a lousy job though - nobody ever seems be held
accountable for screwing up under his watch.
Interesting coments about FDR. I'm no apologist for him, but read his
writings or listen to his speeches - I find him really spine-tinglingly
inspiring. If he's responsible for terrible things under his watch, then I
hope he's held accountable for them. The difference between him and GW for
me is that we are doing terrible things *now*, and can do something about it
rather than pretend it isn't happening.
Just a comment or two:
Wasn't shooting spies/saboteurs common practice in WW2 on all sides?
This is a good thing during times of war. War profiteering is treasonous
behavior, and this is the best way to avoid it. I'm still amazed that none
of the contractors over in Iraq have been tried for war pofiteering. How
many billions are "missing"?
If we're ever in another all-out war like WW2 I'd expect Bush to do the same
thing. Our war in Afghanistan was a couple of weeks, and so was the one in
Iraq. Ever since then it's been a police action, not a war by any classical
sense. The so-called "War on Terror" is really more like a war on organized
crime - gathering lots of intelligence, and making arrests.
Interesting. That 90% figure is often bandied about, but you have to have a
sense of perspective. That amount only applied to the super rich. I don't
think it would matter a whit to the US economy if Bill Gates had to pay 90%
income tax. The idea that a progressive income tax is a bad thing depends
on trickle-down economics, something that has never been observed to work in
the real world. Take our recent tax cuts. The idea was that by cutting
taxes we'd all have extra spending money, and the US economy would boom as
that money sloshed around. Remember the projections of 250k new jobs a
month? It never happened - wealthy people just pocketed the money, or
invested it in China. The only thing that saved our economy was lowering
interest rates to 0% and creating a housing boom. I remember reading last
year that refinancing and construction accounted for 50% of all job growth
in the last 5 years.
It's well-known that the press had gave presidents "gentleman's discretion"
It's said that all but a couple (two?) of the presidents up to JFK had
mistresses, the press knew, yet said nothing. It's too bad they did that
because Americans have this bizarre moral expectation of our leaders that
they never have and never will live up to. When will grow up and realize
that we will never geat moral leadership from our politicians or
entertainers? FDR was never photographed in crutches as a sign of respect
and discretion that was a bit more positive for the nation's psyche.
"Cheney is definitely evil - be it torturing prisoners, spying on
Americans, falsified intelligence, outed CIA agents, war profiteering by
contractors - those trails all lead back to
More BS from a blathering idiot.
Walt, I would challenge you to expand your political horizons. Go down to
your local library, and do a Lexis Nexis search on Americans torturing
prisoners, no-bid contracts in Iraq, the forged yellowcake documents,
interference with CIA intelligence gathering, the outing of Valerie Plame,
the botched reconstruction of New Orleans, and the recent scandal about
ordering the NSA to spy on Americans. Cheneys name will be prominently
featured in *all* of those subjects.
I guess you could argue that Cheney is innocent, but that would be more
than he does. Usually when asked about any of these issues they're
"classified or no comment."
You mean aggressively going after *non-uniformed combatants* for
whom the Geneva accords do not apply. They can be shot on sight as spies
if we like. There is both legal grounds and precedent for doing so.
And the "torture" in this case involves making them uncomfortable and
physically intimidating them, not, say, beheading them with a dull
knife like their compatriots do. Foreign spies are not entitled
to the same civil liberties that US citizens and legal residents
enjoy. In fact, they're not even entitled to the consideration
legally required for foreign military combatants. When the
Brave Soldiers Of Allah (tm) are willing to wear uniforms and fight
other soldiers, not kill innocent civilians, then they'll get treated
accordingly when captured. Until then, they are entitled to no
To misquote a famous person from history, "The Left is an Ass". the
no-bid Halliburton contracts were let out under the *Clinton*
administration primarily because there are so few companies who
can/will do this work at the relatively low net margins to be had.
There will be due process to find out who did what as regards to the
whole Plame matter. Stay tuned - it will have been much ado about nothing.
Go find a history book with small words and simple concepts. You will
discover that the last two major cities to be destroyed by disaster
(Chicago in 1871 and San Francisco in the early 1900s) were rebuilt with
*private* money. It is not now, nor has it even been the charter of
the Federal government to rebuild cities. Only in the Looney Left does
this qualify as an indictement against the current administration.
Again, we need to help you with the concept here. The NSA was not given
an unlimited hunting license. They were only given room to do this when
the American in question was in contact with a *probable threat*. FWIW,
I don't like this either - there should always be judicial oversight
when wiretapping in any form occurs - but the way you people drool on
about it, you'd think the NSA was watching you get aroused watching Al
Franken on TV at night. Your secret is safe. The NSA doesn't care that
much about you.
Grow up. Cheney is neither guilty nor innocent. He is a cog in a big
machine. A big machine made bigger for 70 years by the Chimps on the Left
and now getting even bigger because of the Chimps on the Right. Blaming Cheney
misses the point and diverts the blame from the real culprit: The American
People, who for years have begged for something-for-nothing, who want
some illusion of security no matter how much freedom is compromised, and
who think they can pluck the Golden Goose (the wealthy) with impunity.
So long as we are a nation of moochers and whiners, it will make little
difference whether the regnant politics are Right or Left...
Tim Daneliuk email@example.com
PGP Key: http://www.tundraware.com/PGP /
Actually, no. I mean the McCain amendment specifically prohibiting torture.
Cheney was actively lobbying to exempt the CIA from restrictions using the
bizarre argument that we are A) strongly against torture, but B) want to be
able to threaten to do it. That should make your BS detector go berzerk -
what if your local sherrif or department store detective wanted a similar
exemption, promising that he would of course never do it..... "We'd never
torture a shoplifting suspect, but we need the threat of it to act as a
If the no-bid contracts were let out under Clinton as you say, why was
Cheney personally involved in handing them out after the Iraq invasion?
Cheney was obsessed with Joe Wilson, and he and "Scooter" followed his every
move. I find this very paranoia unsettling behavoir, especially when
combined with his fondness of torture...
The handling of New Orleans was disturbingly similar to how Cheney handled
Iraq. Cheney came in to run things, and lots of out-of-state contractors
got all of the work, local companies got nothing, and lots of money changed
hands and people are still in desparate straits down there.
Really? They haven't released any information about who they spied on.
I've seen an AP story in the last couple of days hinting that the spying was
much more widespread than Bush has admitted to. What's even more bizarre is
that they can retroactively get warrants within 72 hours of doing
wiretapping, but they just didn't bother. That indifference to the law
can't be ignored by us if we wish to remain free people.
Interesting comment - I agree that the American people have much to wake up
to, but that doesn't absolve Cheney of anything. He's simply guilty of
being weak and giveng into the pressure of finding the quick and easy (and
usually illegal) fix. I'm looking forward to him being replaced by someone
who's actually willing to do the 'hard work' to try and do the right thing.
" I mean the McCain amendment specifically prohibiting torture. Cheney was
actively lobbying to exempt the CIA "
The big problem here is what is defined as torture which includes "anything
that makes one uncomfortable". Putting them in confinement would probably
make them uncomfortable.
"Cheney was obsessed with Joe Wilson, and he and "Scooter" followed his
Wow! You actually followed them around and know all this for a fact! Then
you knew all about this Valerie Plame business then? And didn't leak her
name? MORE BS.
If we could agree on the exact behavior that consistutes "torture",
I'd be all for it. The problem is that the current language precludes
even making people feel bad. By that definition, making them listen
to Barbara Streisand recordings qualifies.
I have no idea and I'd like to know: a) If this is true, and b) Why
it is so, if it is so.
Oh, and as to the "forged yellowcake..." tell that to the soldiers who
just carted out tons of uranium from Iraq over the past year. That
particular document may well have been bogus, but the material was
certainly in country somehow ...
This is supported by what? A New York Times editorial? Al Franken
drooling all over himself? National Whiner Public Radio commentary?
I'm not saying you're wrong, only that I've seen no credible proof of
It is NOT the federal government's job (no Constitutional authority) to:
1) Be first responder in a natural disaster
2) Override the instructions of the local major/governor
3) Rebuild cities at the taxpayers expense.
First you bitched that the Cheney "botched" the reconstruction of NO.
Now you don't like the *way* he handed out money. Don't you get it?
The problem is his (and the Feds) being involved *at all*
No, but they've told us that the targets were people making international
phone calls to known/suspected terror operatives. It's a reasonable
I agree with that completely. Too bad we didn't enforce that (thereby
setting precedent) with Johnson and Clinton (to name just two) first.
Cheney's not the problem. You can replace him in a minute and nothing
changes. So long as the Sheeple act as they do, government is:
1) Going to have way too much power
2) Be so large as to be incompetent most of the time
3) Be slow to fix real problems
4) Be bogged down in stupid minutae not in its actual charter
The way to fix this is to slim the Federal government back to its
Constitutionally mandated charter: Run the courts, defend the borders,
regulate *inter* state commerce (only), and, of course, run the Post Office.
Tim Daneliuk firstname.lastname@example.org
Note crossposting and followups.
For now I am willing to attriibute your
misleading insinuations to ignorance,
rather than to malice.
Tim Daneliuk wrote:
That certainly pegs my bullshit detector.
Please refer us to where we can find that 'current languge'.
Somehow? Did you only develop an interest in the subject
With French assistance, Iraq had an active
nuclear power reactor program up until about
1980 when Israeli saboteurs destroyed the
unfueled reactor in an attack coordinated with
an aerial bombardment.
As part of that program Iraq had imported several
tonnes of 2.7% enriched Uranium from Italy, (basic
light water reactor fuel) and at least 330 (or was it 530--
when you check up on this. let me know, OK?) tonnes
of yellowcake form Portugal and elsewhere.
under IAEA supervison at Tuwaitha. At some point
during the middle 1990s or therabout Iraq applied for
and received permisson to use some portion (30 tonnes
perhaps?) of the yellowcake. I do not recall what Iraq
did with it, perhaps it was sold.
The 2003 inspections showed that those materials,
indeed all of the nuclear materials in Iraq, were
accounted for and still stored under IAEA seal.
After the fall of Baghdad the Iraqi guards abandoned
Tuwaitha and the center, by far the largest nuclear site
in Iraq, was left unguarded by the US which declined to
even visit the site for several weeks while attending to
more important matters such as securing the oil ministry
building. That selection of priorities should have been
enough to put to rest any lingering suspicians that the
Bush Administration thought Iraq might have had WMD
When the US did visit the site it had been looted.
The barrels in which the yellowcake had been stored
had been stolen and the yellowcake dumped out on
the ground. The US called in the IAEA to clean up
the mess. The IAEA did so and reinventoried the materials.
All of the reactor fuels, all of the other materials, and all
but an insignificant amount of Yellowcake was accounted
for in the cleanup.
A year later, the US removed the (highly valuable) reactor fuel.
Shortly afterwards Carl Limbaugher (and others) ran a false
story claiming that those materials (which as we know
had been monitored by the IAEA for the previous quarter
century) had recently been discovered in Iraq.
I am not willing to extend the same charity of thought to
Mr Limbaugher as I am to you. Not only is it very hard to
believe that he was unaware of the well-publicized history
of those materials, but also, though he has been informed
of the truth of the matter and referred to the supporting
IAEA documents, he has not, to my knowledge issued a
retraction and in all probablilty the false story remains online.
There were a lot of good reasons to depose Saddam Hussein.
But no good reason to fabricate outright lies after the fact.
Aside from that, are you sure that yellowcake has been
removed from Iraq by the US. That would be quite a substantial
If they peed on your head and told you it was raining would
you believe them?
But for crying out loud please read up on the Iraqi nuclear
program befor commenting on it. For almost thirty years
now Iraq has been sitting on a stockpile of yellowcake sufficient
for (depending on efficiency of separation and designed yield)
somewhere around 150 atomic bombs.
That was never secret.
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