Is My Planer Set Up Correctly?

[dpb]

"...so I would _NOT_ totally eliminate some flex there."

[Jerry Osage]

Yes, that is my solution also. I was suggesting that the OP might have a similar problem.

[dpb]

Something's moving but we've no way to tell what from static picture so that _might_ be of some help, yes. Of course, from afar, it might not be, either; no way to predict, really.

I don't think it would be a waste of time, no. Seeing just how you shimmed it and what's holding what how could be a klew...then again, as above, from afar, "maybe not!" but you've not found it so far on your own, so what can it hurt?

That tells me _something_ pretty major is happening that last foot, then, and the video _might_ show it. I'm still curious about just what the real stiffness of the machine itself is...I'll admit I've never used one of the lunchbox planers "in anger" so I really don't have anything to compare to but heavy iron but I've looked at various models in the stores and they just look too flimsy for real work to me. I'm suspicious something in the planer itself is giving with an irregular geometry.

[DerbyDad03]

I *am* the OP.

I am already using what you suggested.

[Leon]

If your board has a twist or bow, as mentioned in another part of this thread, a 100' long in feed and out feed will be of no help to straighten/flatten the work. The work has to be supported where the board bows up or twists up. I use small wedges between the twisted/bowed work and a sled longer than the work.

The in feed and out feed rollers are not intended to flatten a board into submission nor are they in any way instrumental in flattening a warped/twisted, or bowed board. They simply push or pull the work through the planer.

[DerbyDad03]

Yes, I know that. I was simply responding to Micheal's comment about an extended table by noting that I am already using one. While it, by itself, does nothing to flatten the board, it does provide support for the sled. When using a 6' sled and 8/4 boards like I am, it's nice to have a few feet of solid support before and after the planer instead of relying on the relatively short planer infeed and outfeed tables.

As shown below, I am using an extended table for support and a sled for the actually flattening process. The only thing not shown in the image is the shims/wedges. Rest assured that I am shimming the boards solid to prevent rocking and flexing. The image is just an example of the set-up in response to dpb's request to see it.

Agreed. But is it possible that they could *screw up* the flattening if they were misaligned or applying uneven pressure?

That is basically been the question that I have been trying to get an answer to.

[DerbyDad03]

Unfortunately, the provisions of my WITSEC arrangement prevent me from posting pictures or videos of myself online. ;-)

As I'm sure you know, every board has a different twist, warp or bow, so showing you how I would shim the board in the image might satisfy that situation, but none other.

In this case, I would clamp the front of the board to the infeed end of the sled and use increasing thinner shims, starting at the highest point of the trailing end, filling in all gaps on all sides. The shims would be held in place with either hot glue or double sided tape. Once shimmed, I would remove the clamp and check for any rocking, flexing or sliding.

Again, as I'm sure you know, there are many youtube's showing the flattening process, including the shimming part. I'm doing what they are doing.

I'm with you on that suspicion.

OK, thanks for hanging in here as long as you have. I'm going to give this a rest for a while. I have enough flattened and thickness-planned boards to actually start building the bench for my daughter. All twisted boards were cut 10 - 12" inches longer than needed just to be safe, so lopping off the thinner end is not an issue - for this project, at least. I wouldn't try this with an expensive/limited amount piece of wood until a solution is found, but for now it's time to get building. Thanks again.

[Scott Lurndal]

If the cutter knives are coplanar to the table, misaligned infeed/outfeed rollers should have no effect on the cut; assuming the stock can't shift on the carrier board during the pass.

I'm not familiar with the Wen brand, so can't offer much else.

[dpb]

In particular, I was wondering how you hold the work relatively to the shim---are you hot-gluing both sides of the shims? And, I was also just curious to see how many you thought were enough and to to see an actual attempt setup instead of just having it described...like coding errors, "don't tell us what you think the error is/means, _show_ us the code and the actual error in context".

That's actually a suggestion I had intended to make; glad you did so and thereby got the material needed.

I've done it in the past on the rare occasion, but it's always been much more rigid material than poplar and my "sled" boards were also like 8- or 10/4 oak/maple as I have planers with 6" or 8" throats so the base was much stouter.

I did it by either applying a laminate or taking another piece of melamine-faced ply to the sled and then just used a thinner sled to hold the work and let the planer do the work to pull it thru on the base rather than having a mobile sled as the whole arrangement. Then I didn't have to worry about propping up the outfeed other than just support the base boards as it was fixed in place--a replacement table entirely, iow.

That's why I said that in general I didn't find it worth the trouble! :)

[Leon]

OK, ;~) Actually I have a 15" stationary planer with fold up/down in feed and out feed rollers/tables that are about 2' long. They work just fine and I do not worry with them being on the exact same plane as the planer bed/table.

FWIW the sled you have and the one I am talking about are completely different. My sled travels through the planer at the same rate as the work. I use the wedges to keep the work from moving up or down, because of bow or twist, between the sled and the work.

No, as long as they are in constant contact with the work, preventing the work from lifting. You have a constant indexing point, the bed/table of the planer. As long as the cutter and bed are parallel to each other there should be no issue with screwing up a cut. Think of ripping a board on your table saw. You have the constant indexing point, the fence, that keeps the distance between the blade and the fence constant. Your hands, that work like in feed rollers, contentiously apply "different" pressure as you feed the work. This done properly does not affect the width of the cut.

IF the in feed and or out feed rollers are high or low on one end the cut will remain the same as long as the cutter and the bed of the planer are parallel. A high or low, on one end, in feed or out feed might cause the work to not go straight through the planer as it feeds but that does not normally affect the thickness of the cut either. It is seldom that boards go straight through a planer.

[dpb]

...

...

His "sled" does, too, Leon. He's just done basically like I described with also making a false table but the sled is the 2x under the workpiece and it progresses thru the planer carrying the work...you just dispense with the lower false table.

What isn't shown in the picture is just how he did actually do any shimming when planing "in anger"; he just has the two pieces laying on top of each other as all the picture illustrates is that the two don't lay flat face-to-face after he did make one or more passes to try to flatten.

What we've not been able to see is an actual working pass.

[dpb]

On 2/1/2019 12:32 PM, dpb wrote: ...

Actually, I had forgotten at the time I wrote the above that that's the basic idea you used -- mine was just a lot "beefier" because I was doing much heavier stock at the time.

I've never tried to do smallish pieces that way; when doing a lot of work that would have needed to I had access to a 12" Crescent jointer so it was never an issue excepting for that one set of 16/4 x 15-16" walnut slabs a customer wanted to use for mantle-pieces. They had come from his grandfather's place and been sitting in the barn for nearly 50 years and he couldn't bring himself to cut them down... :)

[DerbyDad03]

Not true.

Start at the top of the pile.

1 - Poplar board that I want to flatten 2 - 2" thick sled, with the stop at the front end so the poplar board pushes it along at the same rate 3 - 1.5" thick particle board/melamine bed, used as an extension table

As do I and as I've mentioned numerous times. The shims/wedges are just not shown in the picture because I was just trying to show the table, sled, etc.

I can set it all up again, shim the board and post another picture or you guys can trust me when I say it's shimmed correctly so that all movement is prevented. As I mentioned to dpb, every board needs to be shimmed differently, so even if I posted a picture of *that* shimmed board, you'd have no way of knowing of I shimmed *every* board correctly. You're just going to have to trust me...or not.

[dpb]

On 2/2/2019 1:44 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote: ...

Other way 'round ... not that we don't "trust"; you came asking for help and from afar, _seeeing_ pictures of how you had the set up when you actually tried to make a trial run is the only way we can see if something shows up to us that didn't to you.

Your choice of how far to try to push the long-distance diagnostics but the clearly obvious seems to have mostly been eliminated (other than the very first basic test I suggested to prove the planer itself is doing what it's supposed to).

Remember, too, you're looking for minute details...a few thou here and a few thou there can add up to real... :)

[dpb]

On 2/2/2019 3:31 PM, dpb wrote: ...

Actually, another thought came to me after posting.

Are there bed rollers on this little guy? How much above the table are they sitting if so?

Possibly the last few inches compresses your bed board from being about in line with them to the table when there's not a long run of the sled but only the last few inches. That _might_ explain why most of the problem appears in the last few inches of the cut...

[DerbyDad03]

All true, no argument.

As far as "the planer doing what it is supposed to do" I have another 'test' question, as in "should it be doing this".

I was doing some basic thickness planing today. Assume a board that was already flat. 8/4 x 3.5" x 26", S2S.

I need to get it down to 1.5" thickness. I sneak up on the cut, half a handle turn at a time (should be 1/32") Eventually the rollers grab the board and pull it through without actually cutting anything. Another half turn and I hear a full length planing sound. So far so good.

The question: If I pass the board through again, *without turning the handle*, should I hear a full length planing sound? If I then pass it through again,

*without turning the handle*, should I once again hear a full length planing sound?

I have found that I can pass the board through at least 3 times and still hear it cutting. The sound is a little quieter each time, but there's no doubt that it's more than just the rollers pulling it through.

Since it's a narrow board, I tried passing it through the middle, the left and the right to see if it made any difference, but as far as I can tell, it doesn't.

Should it be making a planing sound on up to 3 passes even when the head has not been lowered?

[DerbyDad03]

No bed rollers.

[dpb]

That's a sign of what I've been thinking has to be with the little planers; even in the big boys like the PM 180 there is _some_ mechanical play in the various pieces in the planer itself; from the lash in the height adjusting mechanism to the yield of the bed and head supports plus what small compression there is in the workpiece itself as it goes through. All of these effects add up; they're normal and basically unavoidable no matter what the machine, only how much is dependent on just how well-built and stiff the machine itself is constructed.

Do you have precise-enough calipers to measure the difference in material thickness between such passes? For "ordinary" woodworking, it would be within normal tolerances so it really isn't anything of a deal, whether with your particular machine and the off-center work it contributes, I really don't see that effect being the one that would cause the end effect that you seem to be experiencing.

In short, it's normal to an extent, a second pass on the PM180 is essentially knife-clearance except for a knot or somesuch. Of course, it weighs 1670 lb, too... :)

--dpb

[DerbyDad03]

Both of my calipers supposedly measure down to 1/2 a thousandth. Are they truly accurate at that level? I can't tell because even they don't agree at that level of precision - not that I actually care. I'm building a bench, not an artificial heart. ;-)

At the 1/64 setting, it does not appear that any measurable amount is being removed although, honestly, I haven't checked every time at every location of the bed. Maybe when the bench is done I'll play some more.

I agree that that behavior is unrelated to the flattening issue. There was no intent to connect the two situations.

Thanks again.

[dpb]

For this, you don't care about absolute, only relative with the same set of calipers...I was just curious about whether you could actually measure whether there was enough additional material removed that you could actually measure it. One would sorta' expect the "give" would mostly be stretched to the limit and things like the adjusting screw lash wouldn't recover too much between passes if the handle wasn't moved between and so there would be little "recovery" of whatever slack was there on initial pass. But, the machine vibrates, the load is removed, etc., etc., so nothing is completely static.

But, I would expect there simply isn't enough mass in one of these little guys to prevent at least some movement of the head and bed relative to each other with a full planing pass so I'm not surprised at all with your findings.