Is anyone else getting fed up with Norm?

[Lee Gordon]

Then it would be the Old Yankee Workshop.

Lee

[Vic Baron]

"So what" could be said about any post in any thread - it's my opinion and I'm sticking to it.

And who the heck said anything about beloved old ways? I don't really give a rat's ass. I am being totally selfish. I do not use a dedicated molding machine and I want to see how he would do it without. I am not interested in seeing him use tools that are beyond the average *home* woodworker. If I wanted to see how a major woodworking company might tackle a project, I'd look elsewhere.

[B A R R Y]

There are molding machines that cost less than a cabinet saw.

There's always Bruce Johnson...

[B A R R Y]

I just thought of something else.

"The Average Home Woodworker"...

If you take away the TimeSaver, Norm might be a lot more average than we think.

When I think of amateur woodworkers here, on the various web forums, that I've met at seminars or classes, etc... The folks who have been at it for a few years and are very serious about the craft have home shops just like Norm.

It's not all that much of a stretch, either. Norm's shop brand new, minus the Timesaver, would cost less than a decent boat, a Harley, a killer home theatre system, a grand piano, a few years of season tickets to major sports, a few seasons of golf on nice courses, a hobby car (show or race), a horse, etc... Yet we all know people with custom Harleys, boats, show cars, grand pianos, horses...

Woodcraft is an entire chain aimed at the hobby market. They even offer classes to teach you to use the stuff they sell. I'll bet many more hobbyists buy stuff from Lee Valley, Lie Neilsen, Highland Hardware, Tools for Working Wood, Tool Crib, and so on... than pros.

I remember when my own shop was a Jet contrator's saw, a jig saw, one router, and 4 "C" clamps. Back then, I didn't see Norm's shop as something I'd ever have. But the bug bit...

[nailshooter41]

Excellent analogy. I use my tools to make a living, but in perspective don't really have all that many. Yet I get teased a great deal by my friends for their costs.

Yet, they hunt ($$$$$), plan deep water fishing trips (seen the price of a good deep water reel and rod lately?) and invest in "kick ass" home theatre systems, etc.

One of my friends has never teased me since I pointed out to him I could buy all my tools in just a couple/three years with the money he spends on cigarettes and a quart of beer after work. Apparently cut a bit deep there.

Couldn't agree more, and I think spot on. I went to our monthly woodturning club meeting last week, and while there was looking at the Kapex saws. Impressive. Sales are good; they sell one a week, religiously and have for the last couple of months or so. My amigo the assistant manager and I were talking about them and I asked him if they sold them to any full time professionals.

Only one, he said. To a guy that does picture frames. The rest, hobby guys. He told me that was the way with all the Festool tools, except the sanders. The shoe is on the other foot there, and the guys that use their sanders a lot are scooping those guys up. He has a cabinet shop that uses them for touch up sanding before shipping, and he said they bought five last time the purchased. He called a friend of his, and they bought the last three in the store.

He opined that it was a mixed bag of pro and hobby on the Domino, but as seen here, those that purchased them love them.

He and I noticed the same thing on the Fein multi when it was the "it" tool and line. 90% of the sales go to hobby guys. The professional guys that buy them swear by them as sanders, and cutting tools for flooring, door jambs, and all kinds of other flush cut applications when remodeling/retrofitting.

Strange how well the marketing works. They have 1/3 the Fein space they used to have when the Fein was the "it" tool, and no longer carry the Fein router or vac in the store. Both can be special ordered, though.

But the can't keep the Festool stuff in stock (except their router, which they are pushing hard this month with free demos which only further pushes your point!) and it has about 20' of display in the store.

I don't know how well this applies to all the tools sold, but I remember reading in one of the AAW publications that 70% of all lathes are out of use in the first year, and something like 90% are out of use by year three.

Judging by our club and the lack of offerings in the local Woodcraft, I think the wood turning rage has seen its day, at least until the marketing departments see fit to have a "renaissance" of an old craft. I would gladly bet that 97% of all lathes sold five years ago are no longer in use.

Since the Euro tools are all the rage these days, it will be interesting to see what washes up on shore in the next year or two. IMHO, they will be really hard pressed to beat out the Domino for originality and actual real life application.

But hey, I never saw that one coming, either.

Robert

[Mark & Juanita]

.. snip of other good stuff

I think you are spot-on. I don't have a boat or a killer home theater system, I have a well-equipped shop and a couple of old tractors that comprise my hobbies. I think a lot of people who see Norm's shop see it as unattainable as an all-at-once acquisition. I started with a few tools and have added to them over the past 14 years. A few tools at a time or one at a time, and pretty soon you aren't that far off of what the NYW has.

[Lee Michaels]

"Mark & Juanita" wrote in

A couple old tractors, eh? There is nothing that warms an old farm boy's heart like an old tractor. Brings back memories. Lots of stories associated with old tractors. Any pictures you would like to share?

[Mark & Juanita]

Try . Sorry, the previous one didn't come through as a link

[Lee Michaels]

"Mark & Juanita" wrote

Thank you, that brings back memories.

I have not dealt with those models specifically. I have worked with older and newer, but not that particular model and year. But they do look familiar.

[Mike Marlow]

All right - I like that stance! Honest, pig headed, and... honest.

I sorta got that from the comments I had snipped when I replied. After all - what else would be implied when saying that you think he can scare away new woodworkers with his type of show?

You gotta stop doing this - it makes having a disagreement in principle difficult.

Ahhhh, for the good old days. I remember when Norm first got his dedicated mortising machine and before that he used to show how to do mortises with common tools. Frankly though, I would bet that for most of his viewers, they really don't care about something like a molding machine or how to make molding without it. They're just going to run down to the local supplier and buy molding. I suspect they really are more interested in things like - well, getting ideas for molding designs. Things like the way to build up moldings to create a complex and elaborate end product.

[B A R R Y]

I just checked my shop inventory, and here's what I've acquired over ~ _14_ years (SM = shop made):

Cabinet Saw $1,800.00

8? Jointer $1,100.00 Thicknesser $350.00 Dust Collection $550.00 Drum Sander $1,100.00 Mortiser $950.00 HVLP $700.00 Compressor $300.00 Nail guns $300.00 Disc sander $190.00 Drill Press $200.00 Router table (SM) $100.00 Outfeed (SM) $100.00 Bench $500.00 DT Jig $450.00 Routers $1,200.00 Clamps $1,500.00 Cordless Tools $700.00 Hand Edge Tools $1,500.00 Sharpening $1,000.00 Measuring & Layout $300.00 14" Bandsaw $800.00

Total = $15,690.00

If you look at it:

1.) The list looks a lot like Norm's shop. 2.) There are items that are NOT necessities on the list, like the HVLP, the big mortiser, the drum sander, the DT jig, $1500 in edge tools, or the Tormek included in the sharpening total. 3.) I bought nearly everything new, but some were refurbs. More diligently looking for used could have saved big bucks. 4.) Most of my heavy iron is General, Delta, and Powermatic. Grizzly might have saved some money if cost was priority one. 5.) I didn't include things you'd need without a wood shop, like sockets. If you own a home and car, you need that stuff. 14 years = 168 months = less than $100/mo ($25/week)

I've built all the good furniture in my home, probably added $15-20k in value to my home with hardwood built-ins and trim, as well as earned $15-20k (net, not gross) with these tools.

Meanwhile, my neighbor just bought a $28,000 camping trailer that he'll use two weeks a year. He'll also pay $500-600 / yr. in property tax while it's parked in the yard.

[Phisherman]

My list is very similar to Barry's, although I see a miter saw missing on the list. I probably spent too much on my $4500 lathe, no cordless tools, a $900 industrial oscillating sander, a shop-made roll-around air filter/sanding table, and probably $3000 in hand tools and bits. My router table is shop-made too, but even that cost me at least $400 in parts/materials (well worth the cost and time to build). Can't help but be envious of the huge sanding machine in NYW.

[Max]

That roughly reflects my inventory and investment. I built the shop for a little over 16K. But I also have a 30K "camper" that I use about 3 - 4 months a year. :-)

Max

[Edwin Pawlowski]

But let me see you park your tablesaw next to a lake in New Hampshire

I've invested about $8000 in tools. I don't have a payback in dollars, but I have plenty of payback in pleasure and satisfaction of making things, giving gifts of things I've made. Present project is a prototype for end tables I want to make in cherry.

Fellow I worked with bought a $110,000 motor home. He has to work a lot of OT to afford it and when he takes it someplace he loses about 10 hours that weekend. I think he used it for one week and two weekends the last year he was here. Oh, it got 8 mpg also, or 50¢ a mile at today's prices. I'd rather buy wood instead of $30 an hour cruising the highway.

[B A R R Y]

I can land my other toy @ Laconia.

[Lew Hodgett]

"Mark & Juanita" wrote

Nice tractors.

Had an uncle with a 1938 Deere.

Magneto, no cranking motor (ie: stripped bare).

Common comment about him was he was so tight you could hear him coming from 5 miles away.

Made his own tractor front end mounted, belt driven, saw with maybe a

24" saw blade for cutting brush.

Good thing OSHA didn't exist back then.

Lew

[Lee Gordon]

A lot of the guys on this NG are at a level of sophistication well above that of a typical NYW viewer. I'd guess I am fairly representative of someone who watches Norm just for fun and to learn more than he knew about woodworking from any other source. Here's my version of a shop inventory:

Table Saw (Hybrid) $600.00 Used Radial Arm Saw $75.00 Used 6? Jointer $250.00 (Thanks, Barry) Used Thicknesser $100.00 Dust Collection a/k/a Fein shop vac $225.00 Mortising attachment for drill press $65.00 Compressor - Free* Used Nail guns $135.00 (mostly from pawn shop) Used Disc sander - Free Drill Press $120.00 Router table (SM) $30.00 (cheapo Craftsman benchtop model) Outfeed/Work Table - Free + $50 for plastic laminate Bench $50.00 on Craigslist DT Jig $70.00 Biscuit Joiner $175. Routers $280.00 Clamps $250.00 Cordless Tools $100.00* Hand Edge Tools $100.00 Sharpening $50.00* Measuring & Layout $50.00 Used Bandsaw - Free

*Full disclosure: Besides receiving my bench grinder and probably at least half my clamps as Xmas gifts, I also have tested some tools, written about them, and in a few cases, gotten to keep them, netting me $1000-1500 worth of cordless tools and other goodies. And because I have a few connections in the media, I have also gotten a few decent used tools either free or ultra cheap when a friend in the business got a free upgrade of his tool stash and passed the old one on to me. Nevertheless, my workshop, inspired by Norm, is outfitted with less than $5000 worth of tools, of which I have invested maybe $2700-3000 in actual cash. I am also smart enough to understand that when Norm reaches for a machine that I will never have the space or budget to own, it's not the only way to accomplish the same task and if Norm hasn't already shown me a more practical alternative method in some previous episode, it won't be long before he does. I'm pretty sure Norm has already acknowledged that most of us can't have a big ole Timesaver in our own shops (even the one in the NYW is "on loan") and has therefore suggested that if the need for one arises, we should inquire about renting time on one from a local cabinet shop.

Lee

[Lew Hodgett]

An observation:

No where > I'm pretty sure Norm has already acknowledged that most of us can't

That is my choice.

A typical commercial drum sander has 3, 25HP motors, each driving a separate grit, and at least a 20HP dust collector complete with bag house.

Anything in a home shop is a toy by comparison.

Typical charges around here are $25-$30 for 20 minutes.

$1/minute, after that.

You do a LOT of sanding in 20 minutes.

Lew

[charlieb]

Late to a thread, as always.

Norm has grown up - as a furniture maker - over the last dozen years or so. And some of us who started with him while he was the carpenter on This Old House have grown with him, both in terms of tools and machines, as well as furniture making skills. And the competition for viewers has increased significantly due to a) cable/satellite TV and b) the internet (YouTube/Streaming Video, etc.)

NYW's strategy seems to be Keep The Viewers You Have

- they're a lucrative demographic - having both time AND money (well at least some of us Boomer still have some money - not a lot - but enough to buy a new toy/tool once every year or so). And THAT audience wants to see projects which are at or beyond their current capabilities

- with current tools and skills.

And let's face it - after you've made a bathroom or kitchen cabinet or two - with raised panel doors, Face Frames & Ply get Not So Challenging. And then you've got a great REASON (read excuse) for getting another tool.

If you want a show that uses tools that are hard to come by - and often expensive - check out Roy Underhill. So of those antique molding planes etc. are getting downright pricey.

Norm's Got Toys has become more of an advertisement for the woodworking tools manufacturers - but he still makes some interesting stuff that CAN be done without the $15000 - 36" wide, three drums, drum sander. Come on - he's only got half an hour, maybe an hour, to make and finish a Chippendale piece . . .

charlie b

ps - I'm working with a complete novice at furniture making, doing an 8' tall linen cabinet - with raised panels and raised panel doors - albeit out of poplar. Today she'll be cutting a bunch of loose tenon mortise and tenon joints - for the first time - with the Festool DOMINO. I'm betting she'll do it quite successfully - and quickly and easily (ok so I set up the fence and will do one end grain mortise and one side grain mortise to show her how it's done. Then she'll be on her own. Will post pics after the piece is done and installed. The door hinges will probably be the hardest to get right.

[Mark & Juanita]

Dad has a 39 JD A, same amenities. You haven't lived until you've tried hand-cranking a cantankerous engine when it's below 0, the oil is thick as grease and you've got to the the thing fired up because you need to loader.