Is A SawStop Table Saw Worth the Money

[Leon]

I wonder how far back the good old day were. I distinctly recall cheap crap in the 70's. "Wen" comes to mind and it was cheap.

[Mike Berger]

They filed a petition. Do you really think it rationalizes your original comment as quoted below? Do you have inside information on how much was being asked for royalties?

I'll bet you use an unsafe table saw just to spite them :-)

*** > I however can't get over the greedy inventor's attempt to legislate this device into every saw in the US. When his invention wasn't snapped up by all of the major manufacturers as he assumed it would, he lobbied to make it illegal to manufacture or import saws without a safety device (his being the only one that would meet the requirements) installed.

Russ wrote:

[dpb]

...

It's pretty clear from the sequence of events and from interviews that the original business plan did not include manufacturing saws but licensing the technology and that the prime inventor and his investors envisioned a much more receptive audience from the major manufacturers than they received.

That the petition was filed at the time it was and would have had the effect if enacted upon of legislating the requirement to use their device (as there was/is no other that would meet the criterion laid out in the petititon) would have certainly provided them w/ significant leverage to obtain the licensing agreements they hadn't been able to achieve otherwise.

One does, of course, have to impugn motives, but it's relatively easy to understand how the conclusions are reached. Whether they're truly accurate or not isn't so easy. "Greed" perhaps has a stronger connotation than the true motive force, but it certainly isn't difficult to conclude that there was a strong interest in gaining a return on the significant investment which had been made in the product and the (what must have been almost overwhelming) disappointment and undoubtedly some anger over not having it accepted widely.

One has to presume that if the licensing fees were sufficiently low one of the manufacturers might have bought it simply as a competitive edge whether they actually chose to incorporate it in a product or not. That, of course, wouldn't be in the best interest of the inventor/investors, so one again has to assume the fees were high enough to at least be part of the decision process in deciding to reject the technology in toto. Of course, it's likely that the licensing costs were only a small part of the overall decision -- I personally expect that the consideration of potential liability issues was more than likely the overriding factor that ended up being a "deal breaker" but I'm also sure you'll never get a manufacturer to agree to that.

So, my take is that "greed" is perhaps too simplistic a total characterization but I'm almost equally upset of the technique of trying to use legislation/regulation to force the acceptance of a product as the poster to whom you're responding. I'm for the marketplace settling such competitive issues, not the regulators. Now that they have entered the market on their own I've begun to mellow a little, but I still fret over what CPSC may eventually do w/ the petition...

[Frank Boettcher]

So how many people should it take to get hurt using an ill advised "safety" device before either OSHA or the manufacturer would be moved to specify or make something that works?

My point is that on very large hooks, no latch is the safest method. Nobody got hurt without the latch, many with it (including me). Hard to argue that it is appropriate. Maybe you have to be there, wrestling one of those super cables onto a hook to fully understand the difference and the problems the latches created.

Frank

Frank

[Upscale]

Nothing at all. It's entirely obvious that *any* company of merit using tablesaws in its business will be forced by the insurance industry to adopt the Sawstop or a competing technology. It's already happening. Considering the litigiousness of American society, it will happen much sooner than later. There's just too much liability not to do otherwise. We're not so quick to head into the courts up here in Canada, but it's happening here too. Ask Robin Lee if he's replaced his fleet of tablesaws with Sawstops yet. Last Saturday after seminar with Peter Boeckh at the Toronto flagship store, I spent a few minutes examining the Sawstop in the next room.

[Leon]

I am betting that the "latch" is misnamed. I believe that the "latch" was intended to be more of a convenience feature in that during instances when the line with the hook is "slack" the item hooked on it does not fall or slide off. Somewhere along the line it was probably misinterpreted by OSHA as a safety feature.

Not totally unlike the hook on a dog leash.

[Brian Henderson]

You're going to buy an expensive saw and use a cheap blade? Um... hello?

I made my assumption using a WWII blade which is a pretty standard blade, if you want to throw a $10 Home Depot cheapie blade in your saw, more power to you.

But if you spend all your time quivering in fear that someday, you just might have an accident, why bother doing woodworking at all? Woodworking is an inherently dangerous hobby. You will get cut. You will smash your fingers with a hammer. You will get splinters. Most of these things are pretty unavoidable.

If you're that paranoid, you should take up knitting.

[dpb]

Frank Boettcher wrote: ...

...

In my previous life in the (nuclear and fossil) power generation and coal mining/preparation industries, only one. Any lost time accident or injury requiring medical treatment was fully investigated for root cause and mitigative or corrective action(s). If there was a problem w/ a design of equipment, it or a procedure would be modified to alleviate the issue...

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[Leon]

You never know with some people, I use strictly Forrest.

I'm confused, is this a comment on the fact that no one is incapable of making mistakes except for you because you know what you are doing?

Not according to the way you do things.

[Russ]

I'm not trying to rationalize. One assumption is that they're doing this for the greater good. Another assumption is that they're trying to make a buck. The fact that they attempted to make their invention the 'law of the land' could be an action spawned by either motivation. The fact that they were licensing it for $$, not placing it in the public domain, supports the latter. That they were trying to FORCE the public to license their product via governmental coercion after their efforts to market the device failed - that is what ticks me off.

I have no inside information on how much they were asking in royalties. I do however have Google; in at least one instance they were asking 8%. Reasonable? I can't say. Apparently the big manufacturers didn't want to pony up that much, or perhaps it had more to do with liability concerns.

I do still use an unsafe saw. Not to spite them, but to spite the evil saw. My ever-sore, tingly, disfigured, sawn-to-the-bone left thumb is a constant, nagging reminder each and every time I turn the saw on to keep it, and all body parts attached to it, safely away from the spinning blade. It's a very effective safety device, albeit an expensive one.

I would pay for a sawstop device, but only if I had the ability to disable it when necessary. It still won't handle wet/green wood without triggering needlessly. Besides... what if I WANTED to cut some hot dogs on my Jet? Can't do it without buying a new Forrest blade and sawstop cartridge every time.

I don't dislike the sawstop device, or any other safety device. I do dislike, despise even, being strong armed by someone who wants to sell me something. Call me libertarian, but I believe that letting the market

- AKA peoples spending decisions - determine what products make it into my garage. I'll decide for myself what safety devices are right for me. Not some bureaucrat or snake oil salesman.

And after all that, sawst> They filed a petition. Do you really think it rationalizes

[Frank Boettcher]

The poster indicated that following a bad reg because it is in the OSHA federal register would provide the pressure to get something changed. Therefore my question, because I think not.

Most were first aid cases, not lost time or recordables. For it to be a recordable it would have to required off premises medical attention or a prescription. And recordables wether they be lost time or not, were investigated. Root cause was the use of "safety" latches on a

250 ton hook. latches removed, problem solved......However, that solution was not going to satisfy the OSHA people.

My perspective is from the point of view of one who handled the cables, and later as one who was responsible for making those lifts in a safe manner.

You ever try to modify a crane component to make it better. You have just relieved the manufacturer from all liability for any future incidents. On one particular lift, I worked with the manufacturer of those bridge cranes to do some modifications to make a single lift that would be over capacity. They did all the Engineering calculations and work, supervised the modifications, then on the day of the lift, they faxed in a disclaimer for anything that might happen as a result of the lift. Took the money though.

Who were you with BTW. could it have been Combustion Engineering?

Frank

[Dave Hall]

I think you over estimate insurance companies. If there is an "industry" where the pressure would be on to use the SawStop or something similar I would think that high schools and Vo-Tech schools would be it. The combination of very inexperienced users and low "worker" to supervisor ratio would seem to me to create an environment where liability would be high. However I can assure you that none of the representatives of the 4 insurance companies that quoted on my district's insurance required, or for that matter had ever heard of, the sawstop - I asked each and every one of them, and also the insurance broker that was working with us to obtain this year's quotes.

Dave Hall

[dpb]

I agree on the previous that OSHA tends not to change w/o massive push. Am surprised could have gotten the "remove latch" solution through a safety committee even though understand that certainly removed the proximate cause. Would have thought the solution more likely to have been regarding alternate lifting procedure to remove hands from direct proximity...

Also agree that no engineering firm would accept any responsibility for a modified piece of safety equipment, no matter how minor nor benign the modification appeared. Liability just too great and the lawyers and/or field inspectors for OSHA, etc., have _no_ sense of humor (or perspective, often, either). NRC didn't, either... :)

My vendor experience was w/ Babcock & Wilcox although knew a bunch of guys from C-E.

-dpb

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[dpb]

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At least one of the woodworking magazines has added that mantra to their inside cover page, apparently in response to the legal beagles and in the interest of political correctness. I tend to disagree not in principle but in level of it being an "ordinary" level of danger associated w/ the activity and not worthy of mention per se.

Re: the list of accidents, other than the splinter, I can't recall the last time one of the others has happened to me. Not that I'm somehow magic, but I do tend to be careful. Having hit myself w/ hammers in the past has taught me not to do that any longer.. :) I have a very strong aversion to _ever_ cutting myself again severely, and for that reason have very serious evaluations of how I try to carve/cut on stuff...I'm not a professional carver, though...

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[jo4hn]

Only if you can't seem to keep your fingers away from sharp spinning things. mahalo, jo4hn

[Hoosierpopi]

"decided on getting the SawStop

"You guys must be swimming in cash! $400 for shipping? Geeze, I paid that for my saw!

Are you a hobbyist or setting up a professional shop?

My grandfather was the carpenter everyone would wait for, died with all ten fingers and left solid tools my uncle used till he died at eighty.

Richard Newell would have said "its a poor workman what blames 'is tools."

As to fingers, used a high quality carbide tipped blade, It will cut through flesh, bone and fingernails cleanly and quickly. You shouldn't feel a thing. Wrap them up in a clean towel with some ice before leaving for the emergency room and get a decent plastic surgeon or bone man. If you cut through the knuckle, the result is a stiff finger. Keep your head about you and drive carefully to the ER cursing your craftsman all the way - yeah, its the saws' fault!.

If you've $6,700 to blow on a hobby tool, go for the Multi-featured European tool and be "to careful" with it.

When you wake up the next morning and the Hospital Admin folks come to have you sign some papers, tell them to come back when you're off the anesthetics for 24 hours or so. (Lack of capacity to contract!) If you do sign anything that next day - call, fax and write a notice of revocation. Th hospital will try and get you to sign over your insurance to them FIRST and leave you to share the remainder with the surgical team, etc. Have your Insurance company wait until you have all the bills at hand and know all the players. Then, have them make the check out to you and everyone on that list. Then counter-sign the check and send it to them all c/o the Hospital with a letter offering it in full settlement.

If its cashed, that's that no more bills its all paid for! And not dime one out of your pocket.

[Leon]

That is simply not true. Cleanly, absolutely not. Quickly, absolutely.

You shouldn't feel a thing.

You clearely are talking BS. Cut through bone and it feels like your whole arm is being electrocuted.

[Leuf]

Well ideally there would be enough pressure for your company to be going straight to the manufacturer saying your latch doesn't work for us, on one side of me I've got my guys bitching they get hurt if they use it and on the other I've got OSHA bitching if I don't use it. Do something. But yes in reality it's just easier to pay the fine and nothing changes until somebody gets killed.

I'm sure Mike Rowe will be along to show us at some point.

-Leuf

[J T]

Tue, Jun 5, 2007, 12:40am (EDT+4) [e-mail] (Howard=A0Swope) doth query: Thoughts, comments, advice?

Not worth it. You can't even cut salami without it stopping.

JOAT If a man does his best, what else is there?

- General George S. Patton

[Puckdropper]

[e-mail] (J T) wrote in news:25367-4667BB31-1176 @storefull-3336.bay.webtv.net:

Now you know that's a load of balogna.

Puckdropper