How far?

That idea has been relegated to the dustbin of history since, oh, about 1991 or so.

scott

Scott Lurndal responds:

And it also is not a liberal idea. It is socialist, and the neocons have done a better than fair job of confusing themselves about the differences.

Charlie Self "Give me golf clubs, fresh air and a beautiful partner, and you can keep the clubs and the fresh air." Jack Benny

Still is but they have made it illegal to say that anymore.

Doubtful -- the Germans won that one.

-- Regards, Doug Miller (alphageek-at-milmac-dot-com)

Get a copy of my NEW AND IMPROVED TrollFilter for NewsProxy/Nfilter by sending email to autoresponder at filterinfo-at-milmac-dot-com You must use your REAL email address to get a response.

I would say that the "progressive" wing of a certain party has done an even better job of associating its policies and rhetoric with those ideas. Your so-called "neo-cons" are simply pointing out that fact.

Yes we did, and I am descended of those giants, they're still there too. Alex

Equal pay for equal work was never part of the Industrial age. One standard even upto the 1950's and still espoused by many is pay based on need. Statements such as, "That man needs a good paying job to support his family, so Miss go somewhere else to find a job or GET MARRIED" were common especially in any union workshop. The same applied to kids who often did more work that the adults.

Pay was often based on race, sex, age, education, appearance, religion and other factors unrelated to the actual amount of quality of work done. Equal pay for equal work may be a goal, but even now it is not universal even in highly industrialized nations.

George Cawthorn responds:

Reminds me of my first days in a machine shop, back in '57.

I know that equal pay doesn't exist. It is said to, and in some jobs, it is required, but...

Unfortunately. And we get some strange results when laws substitute for sense in the marketplace, with incompetents protected because they are the only ones in a category getting equal pay, thus serve as shining examples of a company's attention to fairness in employment.

Charlie Self "Give me golf clubs, fresh air and a beautiful partner, and you can keep the clubs and the fresh air." Jack Benny

Why, it's word for word what you wrote, Charlie. I used it to point out that what the job is worth, is an arbitrary decision taken by the government in socialist states, the party in communist, or the unions in closed shops, and does not necessarily equate to what the laborer is worth. It is a straw woman to bring the "equivalent wage" and feminist rhetoric into the discussion.

The laborer has a skill set which s/he brings to the workplace. If the set is complicated, _and_ rare in the population, it is sound economics to compensate them at a higher rate of pay. If they move to another "job" in the same firm, are you saying they should be compensated differently? Economics would agree, but try to impose a pay cut, or even a pay freeze and see what happens.

More important than the skill set, which is sometimes learned on the job itself, is the work ethic of the individual, yet this often cannot be rewarded, paradoxically, because it is against the law. If , for example,

So, it's not what the "job" is worth, but what the _individual_ is worth which counts. A company progresses by figuring this out, while to a union, it is anathema.

Obviously I was mocking the idea that everyone needs a "living wage" in Marxist terms. I thought even you would realize that. It's basic leftie dogma that no one needs more than some arbitrary "living" amount, therefore, they should return their ill-gotten gains to the state for redistribution. "From each ...."

George responds:

Bullshit. I never used the word "party" and, though I know it roughens your intellectual picture of yourself, what YOU point out is NOT what I say.

You'd have had a blast working for the railroads in the '90s--the 1890s.

Charlie Self "Give me golf clubs, fresh air and a beautiful partner, and you can keep the clubs and the fresh air." Jack Benny

I see. So liberalism has repudiated socialism? When did that happen?

But not necessarily on the basis of their manufactured goods.

Did you ever see _East_ German imports in the USA, or were they excluded by some McCarthyist hangover ? There were some pretty rough things made there in the last decades.

The way to spot a really old guy in a UK engineering workshop (if you can still find one of _them_) is to ask if they think US hand tools are something worth having.

Andy Dingley asks:

Mostly condemned to the same limbo as Cuban items and culture...people could come, but leave the manufactured things home.

Charlie Self "Give me golf clubs, fresh air and a beautiful partner, and you can keep the clubs and the fresh air." Jack Benny