Education

I'd give the prerogative to the teacher/administrator. IMO, there's no problem in determining which is the former and which the latter, it's the lack of being allowed to enforce discipline and whiny parents that's the problem.

Sit down, shut up, do what you're told and we'll all get along just fine... :)

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Well since we've tried, and are still trying, to spend a BUNCH of money to keep THEM in jails and prisons, and away from US (last I heard it was about $40,000 per year per inmate), it seems like the ROI on education would be a great deal better than the ROI of incarceration - which, coincidently, works like a criminal college. And some of our "institutions" graduates learn really, really well - and apply what they've learned. They're not as good as the "real college educated", like the ENRON folks, but still pretty good.

Wonder what would happen if we paid the best teachers the most money to teach in the "worst areas" - AND provided them with the resources they'd need. At $150,000 per year in salaries and overhead, it'd only take four Not Bound For Prison Graduates per teacher per year to become cost effective.

charlie b

"charlieb" wrote

Wouldn't do a damn bit of good ... throwing more money at the problem will get you more of what you've got already. Teachers, and their salaries, are only half the problem ... and we have about two generations of irresponsible parents to overcome..

Better to give parents an economic choice by letting education funds follow the kid, instead of the school.

IOW, open up education to competition and let the parents decide where to best spend education dollars by giving them the economic choice to send their kids to schools that have a proven ability to actually educate, public or private.

Once that $150,000 in your plan above is free to reward those who actually _educate_, is when you will finally see a "ROI".

... tuppence provided, free of charge.

Charlie,

You present some intering twists so I'll take one last shot at this thread by offering you the example of the East St. Louis school system.

A Federal judge forced the city to spend 3 billion dollars on new schools, equipment, and programs.The ROI on that money was that test scores went down and the school system was offering free daily taxi rides to suburban students who would transfer to the city system.

Allow me to present a personal example. I started 1st grade in 1937 in Fairmont, WV. What kind of financial shape do you think the WV schools were in during the Great Depression?

A memory I have is that the text and library books were plastered with Scotch tape. That early tape was not transparent, but had a milky translucent quality that forced you to tilt the book in order to read through the tape.So we tilted and read and learned because we knew our parents expected us to.

Charlie, looking for new ways to spend money as you suggest is not the answer.

Stewart

Most parents do a fine job. They get them to school every day, then pick them up or get them on the bus. You expect more?

What I also found amazing was the attitude of many parents. We had various programs such as class mothers, Home & School Assoc, a bus committee, etc and all were open and requested as many parents as could to join in. The same handful of parents participated but all the ones that did not accused the participants of trying to run the school.

You're kidding, right? I'd start with basic respect for others and discipline. And then perhaps an appreciation for learning, non-disruption of classes by hooligans. Had these problems to a lesser degree even when I was in primary school. Many times, a trip (or the threat of it) into the hall with the vice-principle and his paddle cured many ills - at least on the surface.

Most assuredly varies by demographics. And I'm not talking racial factors. I've heard from local teachers about bitching parents who complain about the treatment of their "special little Billy". If he's so damned special he can't behave in school, send him elsewhere. (Sub "she/her" where appropriate.) Not to mention law suits, guns, drugs, bullies, alcoholic parents, etc. It can be a nerve wracking job. Slow I could deal with, malicious deserves to get it's ass kicked.

And then there are the time-outers. Kids pitching a fit in public, screaming vile things at the top of their lungs, while the parent(s) stand there watching and essentially talking to themselves. Not an unusual occurrence in modern Yuppyland. Further south they get their butts yanked. Guess where the most suicide/murder shootings take place? Then there are the lawyers and politicians kids... Gag.

Greg G.

Yes, and in Biology class I had to teach a bit of Greek and Latin to help them understand and internalize the vocabulary.

In History I had to remind them that there were more white people involved in the underground railroad than black, that the preponderance of invention was accomplished by males, and that assimilation not separation was how immigrants became Americans.

I answered the question of "what use" in literature by pointing out that the themes are universal, and tell us a lot about ourselves as human creatures even when its Hercules or a couple of kids in Verona who are really the descendants of many others in tales where the parents don't understand the love of two who should by culture hate one another.

I have to do this because it's not in the books nor the curriculum. I can still remember my first encounter with the "whole language" advocates who were going to by God teach Johhny to read using this new method, and weren't interested at all in finding out how McGuffey readers, phonics or Dick and Jane, became the basics for generations of readers. Most of the wholes are out now, but our reading texts still carry some of their stamp when females are not portrayed as mothers and nurturers, but professionals, each minority of color is represented as often as the majority, and Joe and Mary are now a letter longer at Jose and Maria.

What are we teaching?

Cast a glance around at the rest of the world and you'll discover that it's not the price of education, but how education is valued that counts.

The parent in the box with the colorful face is the one that counts most, and it's not even a parent any more as when Wally and the Beeve were growing up, but a peer, where kids are already smarter than elders as preteens. Add that to the hormonal mess called adolescence and it really can get tough.

Please use OT in your topic line as "* Education - 7 new" could be a post about Wood Working Education given this is a list devoted (I thought) to that topic.

You hooked me into this and I should have simply "walked away," but I thought to reply because my list of " Today's most active topics:" appears t ist three OTs with only one so labeled. Come on fellas, let's focus.

Today's most active topics:

• Joining two boards - 16 new
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  * OT: Huckabee, Ughh - 16 new
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  * Education - 7 new
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  * Woodworking Show at the Big "E" this weekend? - 7 new
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  * Here we go again - 6 new
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You are a better man than I. A bit over a decade I got I had the great joy of teaching graduate school for a bit. Now grad school is a place you go "on purpose". Mommy and Daddy are not making you go, and it takes actual effort and money to get there and survive.

Imagine my horror in discovering that a good many people had poor writing, spelling, and thinking skills. Even the most elementary math skills (this was a computer science course) were a stretch for some of these students - all of whom had undergrad degrees or the equivalent thereof. And this was at a fairly well-regarded big city university, BTW, not Swampwater College. Even more disheartening was the fact that it was almost universally true that my foreign-born students worked way harder than their U.S.-born colleagues - not just to overcome the language barrier, but for the sheer desire to *learn*.

For decades, we've been accommodating the tender sensibilities of the *students* in K-12, we've failed to hold parents accountable for their end of the education process, and we've let the NEA mafia hijack the process to serve their political ends. We now reap what we've sown. The only fix is to go back to local/private schools and make the connection much more clear between those who pay for education, those who conduct education, and the results they produce.

I don't need 33 years to have an opinion.

Damn straight.

but I am right

Attendance? Maybe.

I would find it difficult to measure 'motivation'. Opens the doors to way too much confilct (lawsuits when you segregate based on subjective measure?), which Iguess could be mitigated with lots of time and money which would be better poured into educators than more bureacracy, which is what the conflict mitigation would be.

Agreed.

I thought the solution was more money. All we ever hear is how we don't spend enough on education and how we need new buildings and new computers.

Education sure went to hell when the draft dodgers became teachers to avoid Viet Nam, later became administrators, and the politically correct factions came in. We really have to get back to basics and demand an education and don't push kids ahead that have not learned in the grade they were in.

I just hope I did not hurt anyone's self esteem with my post. That would be bad for them.

You may have also failed to properly norm for socio-economic variations, gender bias, the oppressive white males, and the general lack of transgressive inclusivity, nor have you demonstrated sufficient multicultural sensitivity. I, for one, am shocked, just shocked by this display ...

Except if you are getting an advanced degree in Education.

which is about the how

not the what

Regards,

Tom Watson

tjwatson1ATcomcastDOTnet (real email)

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In my various positions as a technical lead, I have had the pleasure of utilizing the "skills" of some of these graduates (bachelors through PhD). The lack of writing skills is appalling; some of these people are exceptionally technically gifted but are seemingly unable to string together more than 5 words in succession nor put together a coherent presentation or report to either document what they have done or get buy-in to what they want to do.

Greetings, For all responders to this topic, in which generation would you place yourself? Traditionalist (born pre1945), Boomer, GenX, Millennial (GenY)

Roger

A more appropriate question would be "when did you stop learning?" Think you'd find the end of the alphabet quit before the "traditionalist."

What's the last book you read? Even better question. Mine is _ A History of Medicine_ by Lois Magner.

Buzz buzz. Gotta have those buzz words. Lots of folks out there care not a bit for education as a pursuit or children as individuals, but they know those buzzwords.

They learn them while getting their "advanced degrees in teaching" rather than in subject.