Downsizing

I don't have as much shop space any more, as my shop now has to share duties with a garage.
So between a bandsaw, jointer, planer, RAS, table saw, and circular saw, what tools can be combined to cover the basic operations we need to do? Crosscut, rip, and maybe resaw. I'm not sure I trust my RAS to rip, it's missing important pieces like the anti-kickback pawls.
Puckdropper
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On 9/13/2019 8:54 AM, Puckdropper wrote:

I was just talking about this on Hobby Machinist in a thread titled Least Used Machines. http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net/threads/79663-Least-used-machines/page4 I'd probably let the RAS go first. Bandsaw would probably be the LAST machine to go. I happen to have 4 bandsaws and I use all of them. LOL. Second to last would probably be the table saw. If its a cabinet saw with leaves or built into a central workstation it can do everything all the other saws can do except curved cuts and cutting steel.
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On 9/13/2019 12:22 PM, Bob La Londe wrote:

w,

?
ip,

4

be the LAST

  LOL.

abinet saw

l

Before you get rid of anything, review ways you can mobilize your work shop. I have seen garage workshops that are quite well equipped, but because of the design the garage is capable of taking all of the wood working equipment plus the cars.
Think of placing things on wheels" My workbench and table saw are on wheels. When not in use they fit compactly along the Wall. When in use the equipment arrangement can be adjusted so that I have the most convenient work space.
Think multiple bases for different pieces of equipment. While these are
not large pieces, I my vice, grinder, hand miter box, bolted to a 2 X. When I need the vice I pull it off the shelf and clamp it to my workbench. Same with other tools on basis of this type
I have seen some work areas where larger tools are carouseled so as you need the tool you rotate it into position, and use it.
Elevate: Some items that are traditionally floor mounted can be fixed so
they go up above something else rather than beside something.
I have seen a video where some put all of thier benches, racks, and tools on wheels. When not in use evey thing fit aganst the wall. When needed the tools, racks, and cabinets could be rolled into the best ergonnomic positions
You can hava a lot of tools if you think outside of the traditional box.
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They did not know your standards, so could not try to meet them.
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On 9/13/2019 2:08 PM, Keith Nuttle wrote: > On 9/13/2019 12:22 PM, Bob La Londe wrote: >> On 9/13/2019 8:54 AM, Puckdropper wrote: >>> I don't have as much shop space any more, as my shop now has to share >>> duties with a garage. >>> >>> So between a bandsaw, jointer, planer, RAS, table saw, and circular saw, >>> what tools can be combined to cover the basic operations we need to do? >>> Crosscut, rip, and maybe resaw. I'm not sure I trust my RAS to rip, >>> it's missing important pieces like the anti-kickback pawls. >>> >>> Puckdropper >>> >> >> I was just talking about this on Hobby Machinist in a thread titled Least Used Machines. http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net/threads/79663-Least-used-machines/page4 I'd probably let the RAS go first. Bandsaw would probably be the LAST machine to go. I happen to have 4 bandsaws and I use all of them. LOL. Second to last would probably be the table saw. If its a cabinet saw with leaves or built into a central workstation it can do everything all the other saws can do except curved cuts and cutting steel. > Before you get rid of anything, review ways you can mobilize your work shop. I have seen garage workshops that are quite well equipped, but because of the design the garage is capable of taking all of the wood working equipment plus the cars. > > Think of placing things on wheels" My workbench and table saw are on wheels. When not in use they fit compactly along the Wall. When in use the equipment arrangement can be adjusted so that I have the most convenient work space. > > Think multiple bases for different pieces of equipment. While these are not large pieces, I my vice, grinder, hand miter box, bolted to a 2 X. When I need the vice I pull it off the shelf and clamp it to my workbench. Same with other tools on basis of this type > > I have seen some work areas where larger tools are carouseled so as you need the tool you rotate it into position, and use it. > > Elevate: Some items that are traditionally floor mounted can be fixed so they go up above something else rather than beside something. > > I have seen a video where some put all of thier benches, racks, and tools on wheels. When not in use evey thing fit aganst the wall. When needed the tools, racks, and cabinets could be rolled into the best ergonnomic positions > > You can hava a lot of tools if you think outside of the traditional box. >
If I did single projects from start to finish I could see the utility in that. Now admittedly I do mostly metal working, but mine is a working shop. At any given time I have 20 projects of my own and 30-40 customer jobs on the projects board. Every machine I use has to be accessible right now or it slows me down. If I had to move machines to get to machines it would slow me down more than not having a machine I rarely use and can use another machine for. That being said I am a big believer in having more machines to get more work done. Even if I only use it once in a while if its set up for a particular job it makes me more efficient. If I have the space I won't sell a machine that I use even if only occasionally. For example I have 4 drill presses. One is used as most are. For whatever size hole I need to wallow in the next piece of stock, two are semi permanently setup with automatic tapping heads, and one is in the garage wood shop on the house so my wife and son aren't tempted to come out to the shop and change the setup on one of the working drill presses. For me the space for those drill presses and having them IMMEDIATELY available is more valuable than the space used by my RAS. Even if the RAS is on wheels (which it is) and I put it behind those drill presses it costs me productive time to move it out and use it, then move it back to make sure those drill presses are accessible when I need them.
I am not saying a shop on wheels is a bad idea. I can see very much how it would be useful to somebody trying to have a full wood shop in a two car garage and still have room for the wife to park her car, so she doesn't have your tools hauled away when you are at work. I am just saying that its not always the best solution. For me I could buy a lot of end mills for the used value of the RAS.
It doesn't help that I retired from contracting the end of 2016 and still have tons of supplies on the "shelf." I need to sell a lot of that off, but that takes time too.
Ultimately PuckDropper has to decide what is going to work the best for him. Your alternative of a shop on wheels may well be the best answer, but for me it would drive me crazy.
I do like some of the flip top machine stands. Where you have say a thickness planer and a drum sander on one stand and you flip the top to raise up whichever machine you need. Doesn't work so well for a drill press that stands 5-6 feet tall, but it does make room for it. I saw one setup on Youtube where the guy had several pieces of equipment in a very large work table that could be turned up or turned down to leave the table top flat. Even his table saw was part of that setup. If somebody worked with a lot of sheet goods that would be an extremely space efficient setup in spite of its large size.
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typed in rec.woodworking the following:

    The situation you are in is different than the situation he is in. Hobbyists rarely find themselves needing to be ultra efficient in space and tool usage. As I said while watching the mill make the prototype: "If I was going into production, I'd do it differently."*     There are a number of skills I would like to have, which I could no doubt "pick up" if I did them forty hours a week. But I do not have those 40 hours, so dedicating space to have the drafting / lettering table, lathe/mill, turning machine, book binding frame, plough plane and press, etc, etc, and so on, isn't a flying option.     And that is before I get to the non-material crafts. (Anyone know of a "teach yourself to write Slavonic" textbook/ course?)
tschus pyotr
*I recall an essay from the early 1990's: the author was a professional furniture maker, who wrote that the finest furniture was made by his neighbor, the accountant. Because _he_ did not have to sell something to make the rent, he could spend all the time needed to make it "perfect". From choosing the wood, to the final finishing.     I'm with him, there are a lot of things I've made which never got "properly finished" because I needed something now, not next week. But I digress.
--
pyotr filipivich
Next month's Panel: Graft - Boon or blessing?
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On 9/16/2019 9:15 AM, pyotr filipivich wrote:> Bob La Londe
> typed in rec.woodworking the following: >> >> If I did single projects from start to finish I could see the utility in >> that. Now admittedly I do mostly metal working, but mine is a working >> shop. At any given time I have 20 projects of my own and 30-40 customer >> jobs on the projects board. Every machine I use has to be accessible >> right now or it slows me down. > >     The situation you are in is different than the situation he is in. > Hobbyists rarely find themselves needing to be ultra efficient in > space and tool usage. As I said while watching the mill make the > prototype: "If I was going into production, I'd do it differently."* >     There are a number of skills I would like to have, which I could > no doubt "pick up" if I did them forty hours a week. But I do not > have those 40 hours, so dedicating space to have the drafting / > lettering table, lathe/mill, turning machine, book binding frame, > plough plane and press, etc, etc, and so on, isn't a flying option. >     And that is before I get to the non-material crafts. (Anyone know > of a "teach yourself to write Slavonic" textbook/ course?) > > tschus > pyotr > > *I recall an essay from the early 1990's: the author was a > professional furniture maker, who wrote that the finest furniture was > made by his neighbor, the accountant. Because _he_ did not have to > sell something to make the rent, he could spend all the time needed to > make it "perfect". From choosing the wood, to the final finishing. >     I'm with him, there are a lot of things I've made which never got > "properly finished" because I needed something now, not next week. But > I digress. >
Pyotr,
I do not disagree. I just wanted to make sure that he or other readers considered all the connotations of making a decision like this. Time is a valuable commodity for everybody. A RAS or a table saw are capable of most of the same tasks including ripping. Both a RAS and a table saw really need an out feed table to do long rip cuts. The only thing I can think of I can't do on a table saw that I can do with a RAS is that some RAS' are setup so that you can also use them for routing. That's a non-issue for me because I have added a cast iron leaf to my table saw that turns it into a router table.
I actually rarely use either the RAS or the table saw for ripping. When I buy a stack of sheet goods I also buy a sheet of 2" styrofoam to use as a backer, and use my worm drive circular saw with an attached rip fence. I don't often have to rip long pieces of other types of board stock. (can't remember having done it in decades)
Anyway, I also like to hunt, fish, ride motorcycles, and drive my Jeep on mountain and desert trails. If I am not efficient in my shop I never have time to do those things. While I am self admittedly an argumentative and abrasive individual I also like to take some time to just sit around with friends and visit. Yes. I actually have friends. LOL. Not many, but I value the time I spend with them.
TIME is everybody's most valuable commodity over a lifetime.
The other side of this is that once you sell a tool or piece of machinery you will certainly need it and wish you still had it. LOL.
I've spent years deciding whether or not to sell my RAS. Its for sale now.
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typed in rec.woodworking the following:

    Excellent point.

    I'd love to have one, but "where would I put it?" Oh yeah,and "how would I afford it?"
    
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pyotr filipivich
Next month's Panel: Graft - Boon or blessing?
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On Friday, September 13, 2019 at 5:08:11 PM UTC-4, keith snipped-for-privacy@sbcglobal.net wrote:
...snip...

...snip...
You talked me into it. I've been trying to decide how to get my vice out of the way, so I just unbolted it from the workbench and bolted it to a portable base.
15 minutes later I needed to use it. It was nice to work in the middle of the bench instead of in a crowded corner like I had been.
My table saw with the router table extension and my band saw are on wheels.
My planer is on wheels too, but not in the shop. No room. That lives in the garage. Not the best situation, but it's not my most used tool.
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On 9/15/2019 6:52 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:> On Friday, September 13, 2019 at 5:08:11 PM UTC-4, keith snipped-for-privacy@sbcglobal.net wrote: > > ...snip... > >> >> Think multiple bases for different pieces of equipment. While these are >> not large pieces, I my vice, grinder, hand miter box, bolted to a 2 X. >> When I need the vice I pull it off the shelf and clamp it to my >> workbench. > > ...snip... > > You talked me into it. I've been trying to decide how to get my vice out of > the way, so I just unbolted it from the workbench and bolted it to a portable > base.
I can't imagine putting my bench vise on a portable stand unless it had something like a semi-truck wheel filled with concrete for the bottom base part. I do have a couple bench grinders mounted on a stand that has a pickup truck wheel filled with concrete for a base. It works pretty good. Been thinking about adding a side "shelf" on that same stand for my 1x30 belt grinder.
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On Monday, September 16, 2019 at 4:18:33 PM UTC-5, Bob La Londe wrote:

Not sure why you think so much weight is necessary for a bench grinder. I have two bench grinders on Harbor Freight metal stands. The grinders are m ounted on wood blocks bolted to the top of the stands. Stand weighs 5 poun ds. Each grinder weighs 25 to 50 pounds. They work perfectly fine for gri nding metal. When I use a bench grinder I let the 1800 or 3600 rpm spinnin g wheels take the metal off. I don't use all my muscle and weight to force the metal into the wheel. Not necessary. The spinning wheels grind the m etal off more than fast enough. And help to keep the metal cooler, which i s important.
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On 9/17/2019 12:55 AM, snipped-for-privacy@yahoo.com wrote: > On Monday, September 16, 2019 at 4:18:33 PM UTC-5, Bob La Londe wrote: >> I do have a couple bench grinders mounted on a stand that >> has a pickup truck wheel filled with concrete for a base. It works >> pretty good. > > Not sure why you think so much weight is necessary for a bench grinder. I have two bench grinders on Harbor Freight metal stands. The grinders are mounted on wood blocks bolted to the top of the stands. Stand weighs 5 pounds. Each grinder weighs 25 to 50 pounds. They work perfectly fine for grinding metal. When I use a bench grinder I let the 1800 or 3600 rpm spinning wheels take the metal off. I don't use all my muscle and weight to force the metal into the wheel. Not necessary. The spinning wheels grind the metal off more than fast enough. And help to keep the metal cooler, which is important. >
Why do you feel the need to minimize the safety of a heavy stable base? You do you, and I'll do me.
I choose a heavy stable base (100+ lbs maybe a lot more), because I am not the only person in the shop sometimes. Sometimes I share my shop with my son and his fellow engineering students when they are working on a project. When there are 4 of them in the shop I can't lean over the shoulder of every single one. Best I can do sometimes is look around and make sure all of them are atleast wearing a face shield, their hair is tied back, and nobody has jewelry or long sleeves on. Heck I would prefer the grinders were bolted to the floor, but I need to move them once in a while. Also there are more than one on that stand. Soon there may be three. I can guarantee if I used a flimsy telescoping tube discount store stand it would be 100% unsafe to do that. But like I said. You do you, and I'll do me. I prefer the safer approach. If it makes you feel better to belittle my choice and make false presumptions about my grinding technique and skills have at it. I promise I won't hold it against you. Its just you being you.
... BUT THE POINT IS I can't imagine putting a bench VISE on a mobile stand unless it had a very large heavy stable base.
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On Tuesday, September 17, 2019 at 11:49:15 AM UTC-4, Bob La Londe wrote:

See my direct response to that point in your other post. A mobile *base* doesn't have to be a mobile *stand*.
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On 9/17/2019 11:49 AM, Bob La Londe wrote:

Not exactly a bench grinder, but, you might enjoy this guys build. He's a machinist with a "to die for shop", and skills to match. It's a 5 part series, but his channel has lots of really nice shop built tools. This one fits your "maybe a lot more" thinking:-)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UXzoM-WXWRw&list=PLkfgL2SKCY4f-LSxB7ykXtdsrlhc1_Bde

or more simply:
https://tinyurl.com/y5kds98z
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On 9/18/2019 7:14 AM, Jack wrote:

I have watched a bunch of his videos. I have not watched that particular series yet. You are right. He has an impressive shop. I really envy his big water jet cutter.
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On 9/18/2019 7:35 AM, Bob La Londe wrote:> On 9/18/2019 7:14 AM, Jack wrote: >> On 9/17/2019 11:49 AM, Bob La Londe wrote: >> >>> I choose a heavy stable base (100+ lbs maybe a lot more), because I am >>> not the only person in the shop sometimes. >> >> Not exactly a bench grinder, but, you might enjoy this guys build. >> He's a machinist with a "to die for shop", and skills to match. It's a >> 5 part series, but his channel has lots of really nice shop built >> tools. This one fits your "maybe a lot more" thinking:-) >> >>
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UXzoM-WXWRw&list=PLkfgL2SKCY4f-LSxB7ykXtdsrlhc1_Bde

>> >> >> or more simply: >> >> https://tinyurl.com/y5kds98z > >
P.S. I'd probably have some of the bigger old iron he has or similar except when I built my shop its was only intend to be a warehouse for my contracting business. I only ran a 100 AMP drop to the "warehouse" for light, a few outlets, and a small air conditioner for the office. I figured that was overkill. Boy was I wrong.
When I start getting multiple machines going I start adding up my electrical usage in my head to make sure I'm not going to trip the main if the office air conditioner or the air compressor comes on (both draw about the same peak on start up.) There was once or twice when I heard a couple machines load up at once that I thought to myself, "I'm sure glad I am the only one with a remote for the overhead doors."
I have turned down some pretty impressive equipment that would have been free except for the cost to transport it because if I ran it I'd have to turn off everything else in the shop. LOL.
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On Wednesday, September 18, 2019 at 11:20:53 AM UTC-4, Bob La Londe wrote:

Do you at least have the lights on their own breaker? It really sucks when a tool plunges the whole shop into darkness if it trips the breaker.
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On Wed, 18 Sep 2019 17:40:16 -0700 (PDT), DerbyDad03

WShen it kicks the main breaker having the lights on their own doesn't help unless they are running on a battery - - - -
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On 9/18/2019 9:02 PM, Clare Snyder wrote:

[SNIP]

That would be true if there weren't any circuits in the panel, just the 100 amp breaker. If the power tool was on, say, a 60amp circuit breaker, wouldn't the lights remain on assuming a separate 20amp circuit?
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On Wed, 18 Sep 2019 22:10:42 -0500, Unquestionably Confused

His problem is when the 40 amp cabinet saw is running, with1,400 watts of shop lights and a 20 amp dust collector when both the air conditioner and beer fridge decide to start at the same time and it kicks the MAIN breaker in his shop sub-panel. Or the thickness planer, drum sander, and jointer are all running along with the dust collector and air conditioner - all on different properly sized circuits and he decides to start the 2Hp router - you know - the old one without soft-start that needs to be on a 20 amp breaker because it kicks a 15 every time it starts. POP goes the MAIN breaker. (mabee a few other "power suckers" running at the same time)
Having the ONLY garage door opener means SHMBO doesn't open the garage door at a critical point in the power consumption curve - - - -
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On 9/19/2019 12:20 AM, Clare Snyder wrote:

DOH! You're correct. My bad!
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