Downsizing

[Bob La Londe]

On 9/16/2019 9:15 AM, pyotr filipivich wrote:> Bob La Londe on Sat, 14 Sep 2019 08:13:11 -0700 > typed in rec.woodworking the following: >> >> If I did single projects from start to finish I could see the utility in >> that. Now admittedly I do mostly metal working, but mine is a working >> shop. At any given time I have 20 projects of my own and 30-40 customer >> jobs on the projects board. Every machine I use has to be accessible >> right now or it slows me down. > > The situation you are in is different than the situation he is in. > Hobbyists rarely find themselves needing to be ultra efficient in > space and tool usage. As I said while watching the mill make the > prototype: "If I was going into production, I'd do it differently."* > There are a number of skills I would like to have, which I could > no doubt "pick up" if I did them forty hours a week. But I do not > have those 40 hours, so dedicating space to have the drafting / > lettering table, lathe/mill, turning machine, book binding frame, > plough plane and press, etc, etc, and so on, isn't a flying option. > And that is before I get to the non-material crafts. (Anyone know > of a "teach yourself to write Slavonic" textbook/ course?) > > tschus > pyotr > > *I recall an essay from the early 1990's: the author was a > professional furniture maker, who wrote that the finest furniture was > made by his neighbor, the accountant. Because _he_ did not have to > sell something to make the rent, he could spend all the time needed to > make it "perfect". From choosing the wood, to the final finishing. > I'm with him, there are a lot of things I've made which never got > "properly finished" because I needed something now, not next week. But > I digress. >

Pyotr,

I do not disagree. I just wanted to make sure that he or other readers considered all the connotations of making a decision like this. Time is a valuable commodity for everybody. A RAS or a table saw are capable of most of the same tasks including ripping. Both a RAS and a table saw really need an out feed table to do long rip cuts. The only thing I can think of I can't do on a table saw that I can do with a RAS is that some RAS' are setup so that you can also use them for routing. That's a non-issue for me because I have added a cast iron leaf to my table saw that turns it into a router table.

I actually rarely use either the RAS or the table saw for ripping. When I buy a stack of sheet goods I also buy a sheet of 2" styrofoam to use as a backer, and use my worm drive circular saw with an attached rip fence. I don't often have to rip long pieces of other types of board stock. (can't remember having done it in decades)

Anyway, I also like to hunt, fish, ride motorcycles, and drive my Jeep on mountain and desert trails. If I am not efficient in my shop I never have time to do those things. While I am self admittedly an argumentative and abrasive individual I also like to take some time to just sit around with friends and visit. Yes. I actually have friends. LOL. Not many, but I value the time I spend with them.

TIME is everybody's most valuable commodity over a lifetime.

The other side of this is that once you sell a tool or piece of machinery you will certainly need it and wish you still had it. LOL.

I've spent years deciding whether or not to sell my RAS. Its for sale now.

[Leon]

Well we all know now that there is at least one "OLD" asshole at the seniors woodworking center. ;~)

[russellseaton1]

Back to the original question asked. Besides simply getting rid of some of your tools, AND adding mobility to most of them so you can store them in a tight group out of the center of the shop when not in use. Also consider changing your tools and how you use them. For instance. The European meth od. Europeans use combination machines combining saw/shaper/router table/j ointer/planer. Or saw/shaper/router. And planer/jointer. And Europeans a re big into those track saws which allow you to rip and kind of cross cut w ithout a workbench or table saw. The Festool Domino makes slip tenons easi ly anywhere you want. Without the need for saws to cut tenons, drill press es for mortises, router tables for mortise and tenon. Change your tools to do everything differently and in less space. I am NOT saying this is chea p or easy.

[hubops]

< snippage >

Just check your home insurance policy - .. you might need a special rider for that Domino .. :-0

John T.

[Bob La Londe]

On 9/15/2019 6:52 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:> On Friday, September 13, 2019 at 5:08:11 PM UTC-4, keith [e-mail] wrote: > > ...snip... > >> >> Think multiple bases for different pieces of equipment. While these are >> not large pieces, I my vice, grinder, hand miter box, bolted to a 2 X. >> When I need the vice I pull it off the shelf and clamp it to my >> workbench. > > ...snip... > > You talked me into it. I've been trying to decide how to get my vice out of > the way, so I just unbolted it from the workbench and bolted it to a portable > base.

I can't imagine putting my bench vise on a portable stand unless it had something like a semi-truck wheel filled with concrete for the bottom base part. I do have a couple bench grinders mounted on a stand that has a pickup truck wheel filled with concrete for a base. It works pretty good. Been thinking about adding a side "shelf" on that same stand for my 1x30 belt grinder.

[pyotr filipivich]

Bob La Londe on Mon, 16 Sep 2019 09:54:41 -0700 typed in rec.woodworking the following:

Excellent point.

I'd love to have one, but "where would I put it?" Oh yeah,and "how would I afford it?"

[russellseaton1]

Not sure why you think so much weight is necessary for a bench grinder. I have two bench grinders on Harbor Freight metal stands. The grinders are m ounted on wood blocks bolted to the top of the stands. Stand weighs 5 poun ds. Each grinder weighs 25 to 50 pounds. They work perfectly fine for gri nding metal. When I use a bench grinder I let the 1800 or 3600 rpm spinnin g wheels take the metal off. I don't use all my muscle and weight to force the metal into the wheel. Not necessary. The spinning wheels grind the m etal off more than fast enough. And help to keep the metal cooler, which i s important.

[Bob La Londe]

On 9/17/2019 12:55 AM, [e-mail] wrote: > On Monday, September 16, 2019 at 4:18:33 PM UTC-5, Bob La Londe wrote: >> I do have a couple bench grinders mounted on a stand that >> has a pickup truck wheel filled with concrete for a base. It works >> pretty good. > > Not sure why you think so much weight is necessary for a bench grinder. I have two bench grinders on Harbor Freight metal stands. The grinders are mounted on wood blocks bolted to the top of the stands. Stand weighs 5 pounds. Each grinder weighs 25 to 50 pounds. They work perfectly fine for grinding metal. When I use a bench grinder I let the

1800 or 3600 rpm spinning wheels take the metal off. I don't use all my muscle and weight to force the metal into the wheel. Not necessary. The spinning wheels grind the metal off more than fast enough. And help to keep the metal cooler, which is important. >

Why do you feel the need to minimize the safety of a heavy stable base? You do you, and I'll do me.

I choose a heavy stable base (100+ lbs maybe a lot more), because I am not the only person in the shop sometimes. Sometimes I share my shop with my son and his fellow engineering students when they are working on a project. When there are 4 of them in the shop I can't lean over the shoulder of every single one. Best I can do sometimes is look around and make sure all of them are atleast wearing a face shield, their hair is tied back, and nobody has jewelry or long sleeves on. Heck I would prefer the grinders were bolted to the floor, but I need to move them once in a while. Also there are more than one on that stand. Soon there may be three. I can guarantee if I used a flimsy telescoping tube discount store stand it would be 100% unsafe to do that. But like I said. You do you, and I'll do me. I prefer the safer approach. If it makes you feel better to belittle my choice and make false presumptions about my grinding technique and skills have at it. I promise I won't hold it against you. Its just you being you.

... BUT THE POINT IS I can't imagine putting a bench VISE on a mobile stand unless it had a very large heavy stable base.

[DerbyDad03]

I think you have a different idea of a "mobile base" than I meant.

By mobile base, I meant a piece of 6/4 poplar large enough to bolt the vise to with about 6 inches on either side for clamps. Once it's clamped to the workbench, it's no less sturdy than it was when it was bolted to the workbench. Only now it's "mobile" in that I can clamp it anywhere I want, including the picnic table or (shhhh) the dining room table. ;-)

[DerbyDad03]

See my direct response to that point in your other post. A mobile *base* doesn't have to be a mobile *stand*.

[Clare Snyder]

The top of my workbench is 1/2 inch solid steel with holes drilled and threaded for my vice. It comes off pretty easy if I need to have more space on my bench. I have a second vice I can clamp to wherever if required as well as both a zyliss and a B&D portable vice. The Zyliss makes a decent work stand for working on bicycles when clamped to a workmate - - - -

[Keith Nuttle]

For my vice and several other similar devices I use a piece of 2X10 or

2X12 about 14" long. When I need it for heavy duty vice activities I clamp it to the workbench. For light duty activities, I find he weight of the base and vice are sufficient to keep things stable.

[Scott Lurndal]

I bolted my metalworking vise to some 3/4" plywood, with a cleat screwed across the bottom of the plywood.

Locate the cleat in the front-vise on the workbench and tighten the vise.

I did the same with the Marsh Tool (later Stanley #100) mitre box.

[Jack]

Not exactly a bench grinder, but, you might enjoy this guys build. He's a machinist with a "to die for shop", and skills to match. It's a 5 part series, but his channel has lots of really nice shop built tools. This one fits your "maybe a lot more" thinking:-)

or more simply:

[Bob La Londe]

I have watched a bunch of his videos. I have not watched that particular series yet. You are right. He has an impressive shop. I really envy his big water jet cutter.

[Jack]

I have 5 vices all mounted permanently to work benches. Portable vices I've never needed, unless you call a myriad of clamps portable vices, which I guess they are.

My bench grinder on the other hand is mounted on a piece of wood and it sits freely on my work bench. I never clamp it, bolt it or anything and it doesn't move a speck. If it was on a free standing mobile base, I would want it heavy enough not to be easily knocked over, but as far as it moving in use, not happening with anything I've used my grinder for, ever. I've never had a need to move my grinder. I can pick it up and move it anywhere, but just never needed to.

[Bob La Londe]

On 9/18/2019 7:35 AM, Bob La Londe wrote:> On 9/18/2019 7:14 AM, Jack wrote: >> On 9/17/2019 11:49 AM, Bob La Londe wrote: >> >>> I choose a heavy stable base (100+ lbs maybe a lot more), because I am >>> not the only person in the shop sometimes. >> >> Not exactly a bench grinder, but, you might enjoy this guys build. >> He's a machinist with a "to die for shop", and skills to match. It's a >> 5 part series, but his channel has lots of really nice shop built >> tools. This one fits your "maybe a lot more" thinking:-) >> >>

P.S. I'd probably have some of the bigger old iron he has or similar except when I built my shop its was only intend to be a warehouse for my contracting business. I only ran a 100 AMP drop to the "warehouse" for light, a few outlets, and a small air conditioner for the office. I figured that was overkill. Boy was I wrong.

When I start getting multiple machines going I start adding up my electrical usage in my head to make sure I'm not going to trip the main if the office air conditioner or the air compressor comes on (both draw about the same peak on start up.) There was once or twice when I heard a couple machines load up at once that I thought to myself, "I'm sure glad I am the only one with a remote for the overhead doors."

I have turned down some pretty impressive equipment that would have been free except for the cost to transport it because if I ran it I'd have to turn off everything else in the shop. LOL.

[DerbyDad03]

Do you at least have the lights on their own breaker? It really sucks when a tool plunges the whole shop into darkness if it trips the breaker.

[Clare Snyder]

WShen it kicks the main breaker having the lights on their own doesn't help unless they are running on a battery - - - -

[Unquestionably Confused]

[SNIP]

That would be true if there weren't any circuits in the panel, just the

100 amp breaker. If the power tool was on, say, a 60amp circuit breaker, wouldn't the lights remain on assuming a separate 20amp circuit?