No kidding about the cost of living here. I am a fourth generation Californian with a Bachelors degree from UC Davis and I can't buy a house within 200 miles of where I grew up. This is getting ridiculous. Dan
Mark & Juanita wrote:
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And you still don't know that any of this and the previous rants have any truth to them.
Unisaws are at the edge of consumer products--and it's been the explosion of hobby woodworking and the incessant drive of the large numbers of those folks for cheapest initial cost that has created that situation.
It seems to me not too long ago there were complaints that Delta wanted some "exorbitant" price for a part right here in r.w. You can't have it both ways--it costs money--a _lot_ of money to maintain inventory and/or tooling to produce parts for every tool ever made for a long time when many of them have very little demand. If there were still sufficient folks out there interested in anything except the WalMart price for Saks Fifth Avenue merchandise the situation wouldn't be _quite_ so difficult for a manufacturer. I don't think there's much choice for somebody like Delta to change given the current business climate. If they don't they probably won't survive and then there really won't be any spare parts.
Of course, the rampant cloning of Delta machinery by 3rd world importers and all the support they've gotten in the market place is a major factor as well.
Yeah, good luck with that one. Let me know how it turns out...
It was my understanding That
this law applies ONLY to Manufacturers Based in California or who have Factory stores in California... a Manufacturer based in another State, or Counrty has no legal obligation under the law...
I do not live in the Rebublic of Kalifornia...and I honestly am glad I do not.... That said...its cold outside so maybe I'll rethink everything
Bob G.
I've been gone, noticed this created a fairly long thread.
I would like to know the source that supports the statement that B & D is going to stop servicing industrial machinery six years from the date of discontinuance of the model. Or is that not what the OP meant?
Frank
Then come to a place like Arizona, Florida, or Texas -- we need people to dilute the Californians moving here.
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I've noticed certain products that had that disclaimer for several years now...
I've heard of people getting parts from Delta for 40 or 50 year old Unisaws. A number of the parts for a 40 year old Unisaw are not the same as a modern Unisaw.
Will B&D keep these parts around or restock them (If even possible) since that particular model of Unisaw has been discontinued for many years?
Brian Elfert
Hard to say...my understanding from what I was told by a gal on the phone some time ago when ordering a piece for an old jointer that it would be sometime in arriving as they would have to have it produced (machined) in order to supply it...except for castings, I think that's what they typically did. Once really old castings are out of stock, I assume it would either take a continuing demand to cause them to occasionally have another production run.
Frank B may know more specifics...
So, time in the metalshop to keep the woodshop working properly. Oh, darn.
Many finishes are listed as "Not For Sale In California." IIRC, CA has the tightest VOC laws in the country, to the point of ridulousness in some cases. The finish manufacturers that make material that would run up againt the regulations simply label it as above. It can drive mail order retailers nuts, but is a good move for most of us in the other 49 states.
Some of you may have Rockwell/Delta metalworking equiipment. If you have any, you would know that there has been NO parts available these machines for years and users have to rebuild the machines themselves.
If the phasing out of spare parts news is correct (and I have no reason to doubt it), it will be a repeat of what has happened to the metalworking side of Rockwell/Delta.
As someone else has already pointed out, if you can't repair it then you buy just enough quality to last for the time you use the tool...in other words you start shopping for price only on disposable tools. If you look at what other products B&D sell, they are cost engineered to the penny. It would not surprise me if ten years from now we look back and remember how Delta how USED to be a brand to buy and how much better the HuFlungDung tools from China are compared to the future Delta offerings.
TMT
Well, my Rockwell tools _are_ 40 years old, after all...to be expected, isn't it? I mean, sense of perspective and all - can you buy a new flathead engine from Ford these days?
I understand what you mean BUT I as an informed consumer spend my money with companies that SUPPORT my purchase.
If you as a tool company want my business, you need to support the product LONG after the purchase.
Otherwise I will shop based on price...and there will always be someone cheaper than you.
As for Ford, I drive a 31 year old Ford pickup and I intend to be driving it for years to come. If the support for this pickup would suddenly not be available because of Ford's shortsightedness, then my next vehicle will not be a Ford.
Brand loyalty does not come for free...it is earned....a point that company management often forgets.
TMT
With regard to castings, many times foundries will pressure companies to remove their patterns if they are not giving orders on a regular and consistent basis. They do this by either raising the price on the casting or more directly by telling you to get your patterns out or they will destroy them.
If the demand has fallen to the extent that the foundry will no longer house the pattern, the company will generally do what they call a "lifetime supply" order which is a statistical calculation that takes into account the falling demand and the past historical use. I'm not certain what the variables are, but it is not always perfect and, certainly you can run out before all the machines wear out.
Delta is probably the industry leader when it comes to servicing old machines. I say that because I had my regular production interfered with every month to produce service requirements for machines that had not been in regular production for decades..
It is not B & D that worries me with regard to service parts but the trend to far eastern suppliers. They typically will not service obsolete machines forcing the selling company to change their service part philosophy just because they can't get the parts at any reasonable cost.
Still waiting for the source and confirmation on the B & D six year cuttoff on obsolete industrial machinery service support. I don't believe it.
Frank
Maybe not from Ford, but for more popular versions of various things (in my case, tractor parts), there are OEM-spec producers who produce various parts to original spec (at least the good ones do). That, and old parts from machine being parted out can keep old stuff going for a long time.
+--------------------------------------------------------------------------------+ If you're gonna be dumb, you better be tough +--------------------------------------------------------------------------------+I doubt it is as irritated as those of who detest having to scroll to the bottom to read anything significant feel.
Rarely is it ever a problem. Manfs and retailers know the rules and everyone just goes along with it. Fwiw, most products never see warranty repairs anyways.
Important stuff first: EVERYONE should check with their state?s warranty laws. They are all different, there are many laws out there to protect consumers, many folks aren?t even aware of them. Also, see the Magnuson-Moss Act, the fed law regarding warranties. Most folks I know don?t have a clue about warranties. If Delta sells the same Unisaw with a 2-yr warranty (costs less) and a 5-yr warranty (costs more), both saws have the same implied warranty of 5-years. Some states do not allow the manf to limit the implied warranty, some do.
Now the babbling: Calif can adopt aggressive consumer protection laws because the state has a huge population and thus a huge retail sales base. The only thing new about Calif?s warranty laws are that consumers must now be given notice in writing that their warranty is frozen in place pending repair and return of the item. The laws apply to any manf that distributes product in this state, regardless of origin of manf or distribution. Calif can and does reach across state line to pursue civil and criminal actions against manfs.
In a nutshell, Calif decided electrical junk would not be sold here. Likewise, retailers can?t try to snag a quick buck buy pawning off garbage. Think of it as being responsible for your own actions (a novel idea), but in this case it?s the manf and retailers that need to be responsible for their own actions. Not a bad thing. Any manf making a quality product has no worries. Manf?s of shoddy product should worry?Calif is one of several states that does not allow a manf to limit liability for consequential damages resulting from the use of a product.
Many of Calif?s laws have had a ripple effect across all the states, i.e. requiring a toll free number to call if you need repairs and/or proving a list of repair centers with the product. It is easier to provided a toll free number and a list of repair centers for all 50 states than to just do it for Calif residents then try to explain to the other 49 states why they aren?t worthy of the same service. Same for product registration, Calif forbids a manf from requiring the return of a warranty card or the registration of a product, nor can a manf require any kind of internet registration. It is easier to make product/warranty registration optional for everyone than try to keep Calif separate.
My personal favs are Calif?s laws that prevent manfs, distributors, and/or sellers from doing anything that diminishes a warranty. And extended warranties can?t parallel the manf?s warranty, they start when the manf?s warranty ends. The increasingly popular scheme where manf?s engage in price-fixing by saying that you must buy their product from an authorized dealer or you don?t get a product warranty only works in the other 49 states?not in California, because the manf is prohibited from diminishing the original warranty.
Fed law already prevents a manf from controlling product distribution, i.e. you can buy something at Sam?s Club or Costco and resell it as new product in your own local shop if you want to, and the warranty stays in effect as it would with any new product. That?s a federal law. Claiming ?not for sell in California? isn?t going to cut it. Every item sold in the USA comes with an implied warranty of fitness (Magnuson-Moss Act).
Just so you don?t think all is bad in here Arnold?s Kingdom, new for
2005 are some absolutely wicked anti-spam and anti-spyware laws. Calif has cases pending against 3 companies, one in Calif, one outside Calif, and I don?t recall where the third company is. Their fines are each $1-million per day for everyday they distributed email spam. I suspect as word gets around spam will decline for everyone in all 50 states since there is no way to know which state a computer (laptop) occupies at any given time. Websites accessible in Calif cannot automatically add you to their spam list. You must check a box that says ?add me?, not one that says ?don?t add me?. There?s also some new stuff regarding active software you do not know about or consent to, i.e. spyware and beacons, but I haven?t had time to follow it.Oh, one last thing, it is almost impossible to sell something as ?as is? in Calif. Keep that in mind the next time you buy something from a business or Power Seller on Ebay, a Calif corporation.
Yep it has even touched us in the 51st state Aust. :) I purchased an item the other day, can't remember what it was but I do recall that the packaging had something similar to the following. "Attention this item may contain products that are considered harmful to your health in the State of California" Shit, I sure am glad that it only effects people living there. ;) regards John
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