Beginners Syndrome

[Swingman]

Classic "Nuff said" ... ;)

[clare]

The smart man learns from the mistakes of others, the average man learns from his own mistake, and the fool never learns, because he doesn't make mistakes.

[Al Lewis]

hah, just wait until you start getting welding or metal machining, that's a black hole you never come out of.

been, there, hell, still there now.

Al

[-MIKE-]

Wow! I've always heard the first two, but that third one really brings it home.

I'm stealing that.

[John McCoy]

Leon wrote in news: [e-mail]:

This. I always sketch out what I'm planning to do, with dimensions, before I start. Pencil and paper, because I'm old-school. And generally not a true scale drawing (I could do that, I worked as a draftsman a long time ago), since I find as long as I work out and record all the dimensions, I don't need it to be scale.

John

[Puckdropper]

woodchucker wrote in news: [e-mail]:

That's why I say formal education is not the path to true intelligence, merely one of the steps along the way.

I also believe that after a certain point, formal education holds you back.

Puckdropper

[clare]

No need to steal it - I placed it in the public domain a few years ago.

[clare]

Just preface it with "a smart guy I met on the internet said"

[Leon]

I was never a draftsman but was headed in that direction when in school. The trouble with paper and pencil is that the drawing, and especially if not to scale, only gives you an ideal/concept. It does not necessarily give correct dimensions. You can put dimensions on the drawing but if not to scale you have no way to guarantee if the drawing is doable with the dimensions you want. With software you have the ability to have the program double check your thoughts.

[John McCoy]

Leon wrote in news: [e-mail]:

If the dimensions aren't right, then the drawing isn't right. There's no point in making an incorrect drawing, whatever tool you use to make it.

If the dimensions add up correctly, then it's doable.

There's nothing that says a drawing has to be 1/4inch to the foot, or even have the same scale vertically as horizontally, for the dimensions to be correct. By the same token, every woodworking magazine starts every issue with a "corrections" paragraph for the dimensions that were wrong in the drawings in the previous issue, despite using some sort of CAD program to create the drawing.

When I make a drawing, I do front view, side view, and top view (and detail views for internal or assembly if I need it for clarity). I dimension everything, and I make sure the dimensions add up. And that includes factoring in tenons, or overlaps on rabbets, or stuff like that. But I simply don't bother making it to scale.

I still cut stuff wrong on occasion, but that's the fault of poor measuring, not the drawing.

John

[krw]

Yes, and you can even do the jointery in software so you get those dimensions right, too. Doing everything is software first saves a lot of trees.

[Electric Comet]

with this addition

when you learn to fix them so no one can even tell you have reached craftsman i have heard an expert is one that has no more mistakes left to make experts have made them all

[Swingman]

Lacking the necessary gene to envision what a design looks like when seen with a pair of eyeballs six feet off the ground, and from different angles and distances, is precisely why I was excited to see computer based 3D modeling technology, like SketchUp, become readily/affordably available.

[Casper]

[e-mail] was heard to mutter:

A smart man makes a mistake, learns from it, and never makes that mistake again. But a wise man finds a smart man and learns from him how to avoid the mistake altogether. -Roy H. Williams

[Leon]

Well if the drawing is not to scale, the drawing is not right. You did say you did not do true scale. Or do you consider true scale to be full scale?

I may not be making myself clear about the advantages to using a drawing program vs. pencil and paper drawing. The advantage to a drawing program is that it shows 3D at any angle and can show whether the internal parts fit together correctly. That is not often possible with a hand drawn drawing, especially if you are not visualizing how the pieces fit together when you draw it. Additionally I use a program to import my pieces from a computer drawing into an optimization program. It is a huge time saver and increases accuracy dramatically.

That is correct and in fact I could not tell you what scale my printed drawing are when they print but they are precisely to "some" scale. The scale does not matter as long as everything is to the same scale. But if you are not drawing to scale the drawing can easily be deceiving and dimensions put in by you may not show a problem. With a drawing program the dimensions are automatically calculated between the points you choose and will immediately tell you if the part is the correct size. If you don't use a CAD or drawing program this is very hard to appreciate.

Again if you are not drawing to some scale you are not getting an accurate view of what you are drawing. When you draw to scale you can measure the drawing to get the true accurate dimensions anywhere in the drawing. If not drawing to scale you have to mentally make up what the dimensions will be and that is where an error in calculations can be entered.

No doubt.

[Leon]

Big time I do the joinery in the drawings. I draw every thing precisely as it will be built "except" where I put in Domino tenons. Because those can be accurately placed after the pieces are cut there is no need to draw them in place, at least the way I do them. Adding Dominos in a drawing does not change how the pieces will be cut, let me put that another way. I know exactly what size the Domino is and when I draw I make an allowance for the room it needs on the component. Adding Dominos to a drawing along with two mortises for each is very tedious. Now having said that perhaps Sketchup Pro will more quickly draw those mortises using the "Solid Tools". You don't get full use of Solid Tools with the free version.

[Leon]

;~) I was damn good at drafting in school, I have a few ribbons. Strange I did not peruse a career in that direction and today probably glad that I did not. I think ultimately it was architectural drafting that turned me off on drafting.

Anyway I used a t-square and triangles up until 1986. That was when I got my first computer and a few months later bought my first CAD like program, IMSI Designer. Its was strictly 2D and specific length lines were determined by how many times you hit the arrow key. There was not Direct Distance Entry like most all CAD programs have now. Fortunately you could easily change the distance each key stoke represented. Probably after a dozen program/upgrades changes I think you and I finally made the permanent switch to Sketchup at about the same time. Sketchup as a tool is as important as any tool in my shop. And as you mentioned it gives you immediate visual confirmation of how the project will look.

[John McCoy]

Leon wrote in news: [e-mail]:

I'm not looking for an accurate view of what I'm drawing, and I'm not intending to take measurements off the drawing (which is an incredibly inaccurate thing to do, which is why boatbuilders loft their drawings at full size, so they can take accurate measurements).

I get that you like to make a drawing, and let the results of that drawing determine the measurements. I don't. I make the measurements work, and don't worry about the exactness of the drawing.

John

[Leon]

Screw boat builders. ;~) Think Empire state building and bigger. FWIW in my formal drafting classes, mechanical and architectural the drawings had damn well better measure to scale to the dimensions drawn.

If you get buy with sketches and that works for you that is great. I'll dare say that all drawings for building on a professional level are drawn to scale.

No, you don't get it, but unless you use drawing programs you probably will not. That is OK.

[Bill]

Drawing programs actually help reduce the symptoms of BS, by allowing the prospective creator to revisit some of the technicalities in advance, resulting in a savings of time, mental anguish, and materials (as has been adequately discussed here before). This does not imply that the drawing created needs to be complete, not at all--just adequate for its purpose...you don't get paid for the drawing (unless you do, and that's a different discussion).

Bill