alternatives to edge banding or veneer

On 1/9/18 10:59 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:

More or less, yes. IIRC, I pushed down when tightening the clamps to ensure there was good contact with the bottom of the "L." Keep in mind, the glue joint on the portion of the edging that is underneath the shelf is only as strong as the glue between the bottom two veneers, right? Any glue I use there will adhere to the finish veneer on the bottom. The only glued bonding that's really necessary in on the edge of the plywood. The hardwood edging is bonding with every ply and all those plies are bonded to each other. The biggest advantage to the rabbeted ("L") portion of this joint is the multiplied mechanical and physical structural strength.
The simple physical structure of that shelf sitting on the rabbet ("L") adds and incredible amount of strength to the shelf, even without any glue on that surface. And in fact, even if the "L" wasn't there at all-- if the edging was simply a 3/8"-ish x 1-1/4"-ish rectangular strip of wood-- the extra 1/2"-ish of profile in the edging acts like an I-beam to add a lot of strength and keep the shelf from sagging.
Think of a metal floor truss and how little surface is actually resting on the bearing walls, yet because of the physical properties, the mechanical strength is great. Perhaps a poor analogy, but it's bedtime. :-)
The shelf in this picture was used in these bookcases, with 4ft. wide shelves.
http://mikedrums.com/bookcases.jpg
I did a test of one of these shelves. I placed the shelf between two tool boxes with about an inch of shelf resting on each box. I then took about half of all the books the client was going to put on these shelves and stacked them all on this shelf, in a pyramid. I left them there for about 4 days and there was absolutely NO deflection in the shelf.
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On 1/9/18 8:22 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:

Alignment isn't a trivial proposition. Unless it's going to take

By the way, if you are doing 30" shelves I don't think you even need the rabbeted portion. I did some shelves with hardwood edging, that was about the same height as what I did in the picture I (finally) posted.
But is this case, I took two 12" (nominal size) wide shelves, put a hardwood edging strip between the two shelves that was 2x the width of the finished edging (somewhere around 1" thick x 1-3/8"), and glued both shelves to the thicker edging, with the edging in the middle-- a sandwich.
After this glue-up cured, I ripped the two shelves apart in the center of the edging. Routed the edging flush with the shelves, then made a final rip pass (just a shave) on each shelf on the table saw to perfectly square the edging to the shelf.
Depending on how long your clamps are, you could do 3 or 4 shelves wide on a glue-up using this method, similar to a panel glue-up.
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On Wednesday, January 10, 2018 at 1:34:14 AM UTC-5, -MIKE- wrote:

ages/bit_edgeband_ogee.html#edge_banding_anchor

.

.

Thanks for all the suggestions. I really sporeciate the info.
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On 1/10/18 5:45 AM, DerbyDad03 wrote:

Alignment isn't a trivial proposition. Unless it's going to take

I just found a picture of a bunch of shelves I was "double-clamping," in case it helps you visualize. You will notice there are some good clamps and some el-cheapo clamps. :-)
http://www.mikedrums.com/double_shelf_clamps.jpg
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On Friday, January 12, 2018 at 12:46:01 AM UTC-5, -MIKE- wrote:

/pages/bit_edgeband_ogee.html#edge_banding_anchor

Thanks for that.
I was reading some reviews on the el-cheap HF clamps. The standard upgrade is to insert a piece of scrap stock into the tube. It vastly increases the stiffness. Th e twisting seems to be the only real complaint, which the insert eliminates.
Another possible upgrade is the one I did on a pair of Clamp-It clamps. I r eplaced the sliding T handle with a Bessy style handle. I'm sure you use less turns on the bar clamps, but it was a real pain to use the T handles on the Clamp-It unless it hung over the ed ge of the workbench.
https://i.imgur.com/ViWlxqZ.jpg
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On 1/12/2018 6:18 AM, DerbyDad03 wrote:

The simple solution to keep the clamps from bending panel is us clamps on both sides to equal out the direction of deflection.

How do these work for you. I have never been impressed with these style clamps, they do not draw the pieces together rather they simple hold the pieces in the position that you place the pieces. If you have a gap between he mating corner pieces, tightening the clamp does not close that gap. IMHO they encourage a poor fit. I certainly would not use them for gluing a corner, maybe if I were only using the clamps relatively loosely as a guide and using mechanical fasteners.
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On 1/12/18 11:05 AM, Leon wrote:

This is probably the best corner clamp out there. It leaves marks that must be puttied, but it really pulls the corner together tightly.
http://www.garymkatz.com/toolreviews/clam_clamps.html
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On 1/12/2018 11:36 AM, -MIKE- wrote:

YES! I have seen that before but forgot about it.
BUT! Does it only work for something like a frame like the one pictured? Could it be used where the corner is not flush on both sides? Like a FF being attached to a cabinet side where the FF goes past the side of the cabinet a 1/2" or so? Or if attaching mid rails between stiles vs. top and bottom rails to stiles?
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On 1/12/18 12:12 PM, Leon wrote:

Probably not all that. This looks like something guy invented for a specific application because he was doing hundreds of them and needed a solution-- and he nailed it.
I'm not sure if he'd have the motivation to apply the idea/technology to other clamps for the joints you referred to. It would be nice if he did, though.
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On Friday, January 12, 2018 at 12:05:59 PM UTC-5, Leon wrote:

I think we're talking apples and grapes...unless you are just tossing out an unrelated tip.
What I was referring to is the flimsiness of the U-shaped aluminum bar itself. From what I read, the bar itself tends to twist end-to-end when a lot of clamping force is applied. The solution is to insert a tight fitting piece of stock to fill the U shaped channel. I'm not speaking from experience - yet - although I did pick up a couple on the way home tonight. They are easily twisted by hand, so I'll be stuffing them with some scrap just to bulk them up a bit. Better before than in the middle of a glue up.

You are 100% correct in that they do not draw the pieces together, but they do a great job or holding stock vertical for things like edge banding, flush trim routing, etc. Basically an extra pair of hands.
They do indeed work for keeping stock square for pocket screws.
I actually have a pair of the MLCS Clamp-It style (a gift) and a pair of the Bessey style that I bought on my own. The both have their gives and takes. The Clamp-It sits solid on a bench for holding panels vertical while the Bessy's come with small C-clamps with a post that goes into a hole in the base so that you can clamp the clamp to the edge of workbench.
http://www.rockler.com/bessey-angle-clamp?sid=V9146
When I edged banded the shelves that will go into the base cabinets I'm building, the Bessys, clamped to the workbench, held the shelf upright while the glue dried and then held it solid enough so I could flush up the band with a router.
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On 1/12/2018 4:42 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:

There should be no twist, I don't think. I have never seen anything but a bow when pressure is applied. Keep us informed if you experiment.
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On Friday, January 12, 2018 at 5:46:26 PM UTC-5, Leon wrote:

I wonder what Mike has to say about twisting. It looks to me like he has a half dozen or so - unstuffed - in this picture:
http://www.mikedrums.com/double_shelf_clamps.jpg
I just stuffed mine with a strip of plywood and it made a huge difference in the stiffness of the bar from a twisting perspective. It turns out that the plywood I'm using for the cabinets is the perfect thickness. All I had to do was rip some 1 7/64" strips, round the edges on my new combo sander (Thanks, kids! Merry Christmas!) and hammer it home. At 1 7/64", it's just tall enough that the indentations that the spring loaded pad locks into compresses the plywood core as I hammer it home. Unless I put a saw kerf in the plywood strip to loosen it up, that sucker ain't coming out of there.
All the videos of the "upgrade" say that the stiffener makes them feel so much more substantial. I definitely agree with that.
We'll see how they do on a panel glue up tomorrow.
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On 1/12/18 7:34 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:

I don't know about twisting. There are so many other things I hate about them that maybe I just didn't notice. :-) FWIW, the newer ones may very well be thinner than older models. I could definitely see them doing that to save material costs.
One of my biggest beefs with them is that the jaws don't stay anywhere close to perpendicular to the bar. It make it very difficult to clamp thin things without them trying to pop out, ie: 1x panels.
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On Fri, 12 Jan 2018 04:18:04 -0800 (PST), DerbyDad03

I broke enough of the end castings on HF clamps that I put the clamps where I'll likely never use them again. It's a PITA to have one break when you're trying to get everything aligned.

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On Friday, January 12, 2018 at 7:12:41 PM UTC-5, snipped-for-privacy@notreal.com wrote:

tml/pages/bit_edgeband_ogee.html#edge_banding_anchor

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in

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de is to insert

The twisting seems to

Are we talking about the same clamps? Apples to apples, as they say?
The reason I ask is because the clamps that Paul Sellers modifies in his video don't appear to have the same end castings as the the ones I bought.
It's not just the color difference. For example, if you FF to 9:36, you can see a closeup of the clamp casting. Take a look at the size of the diagonal brace above the barrel near the screw.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AyKiGmRq3wY

Now zoom in on the diagonal brace above the barrel in the link below. It looks taller and beefier to me. In addition, at ~3:00 he complains about the rubber ends of the handle coming off. The modern version has cap nuts.
https://www.harborfreight.com/36-in-aluminum-bar-clamp-60539.html
I can't say that the new ones are any better than what you have unless we do a side by side comparison, I'm just saying that there is definitely a difference between the clamps in Paul's July 2016 video and what I bought today. (Mike's clamps look like what I bought)
I just stuffed mine with a stiffening stick and it made a huge difference. We'll see how they work on a panel glue-up tomorrow.
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On Fri, 12 Jan 2018 17:20:19 -0800 (PST), DerbyDad03

They look the same, though the ends are blue like the ones on the floor in Mike's picture.
http://www.mikedrums.com/double_shelf_clamps.jpg
It's the foot casting that breaks.

That's them. I bought mine about ten years ago, though. Haven't used them in probably eight.

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On 1/9/18 7:47 PM, -MIKE- wrote:

Oops....
http://mikedrums.com/shelf_edge_top.jpg
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On 1/7/2018 3:41 PM, Electric Comet wrote:

As others point out, simply gluing solid wood strip to plywood, assuming it is decent stuff and not full of voids, should be strong enough for most purposes. On one project I cut a centered dado on plywood shelves and a matching tongue on the facing strip. It worked a treat but was a serious PITA to mill accurately and probably not worth the extra effort.
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On 1/7/2018 1:41 PM, Electric Comet wrote: > > will be making some stuff that will be for indoor use > but will be handled and will be mobile > > > want to keep it thin and light and cheap so ply is the answer but > what are the options for the edges > > no edge banding or veneer as it will not hold up well enough > > > think that maybe some solid wood glued and screwed would be best > > but maybe there are other treatments or possibilities > >
How tough does it need to be? Simple oak trim, glue, and pins seems to work pretty well for utility shelves. Puppies on the other hand will tear it off. They chew on everything.
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On Tue, 9 Jan 2018 14:11:55 -0700

that might be what i do or something like that
may use leather trim all the way around
still in that deciding and design stage
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