Accountants as engineers - Ppppfffftt''

I was walking through a local tool store today and they had just unpacked a new Unisaw. The first thing I noticed was the knurled handwheel locks have now been replaced with some kind of wing nut. They look like someting that came out of a hardware bin.

Apparently the corporate finance pukes don't get it. Those of us who use tools daily understand the equipment and what is happening. The function might still be there but the quality of fine equipment like the Unisaw is suffering -- and the price continues to go up.

Hmmmm. I wonder if the knurled, plated locks on the Griz will fit?

Reply to
RonB
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"RonB" wrote in news:i9W6d.3048$gm.2423@okepread07:

They get it, but they just don't care. As far as I can see, this is common to most companies in existence -- they start out with a good product, and it gets "value engineered" into the ground, all in the name of improving profit. This eventually drives the company out of business, since new companies can now start up with higher quality products, and without the tainted name.

It's very sad.

Reply to
Murray Peterson

Yeah, but a machine that has double in price during the past 10 years cannot be called cheap.

Reply to
RonB

Cheap, yes. Inexpensive, no.

Reply to
Al Reid

That too ... but it's even deeper than that with regard to "they just don't care". AAMOF, just exactly who is it that "doesn't care"?

Widget A is a well made, long lasting, high quality product with a fair price tag. Widget B is a cheap, low quality rip off of Widget A, but priced low enough that more and more folks who either "don't care", or "don't know better", will buy Widget B.

Can you fault a company trying to survive by moving toward Widget B "price point engineering", since that is what is selling?

The point: the consumer makes the choices ... if there are none left, it's very often his own damn fault.

Ahh ... you hit the sticky wicket with the crux of the mallet head. :)

In the case of Widget A, the company making its product cheaper is stil marketing it's good name with an inferior product (the Unisaw fits here).

Defense: Buy used!

You're right about that!

Reply to
Swingman

Well, I wouldn't go as far as to say the Unisaw is inferior........ yet.

When I started looking for a machine to update my old contractor's saw a few years ago I was pretty much predisposed to the Unisaw. I had used them in a college cabinet class during the mid 70's and had fond memories. A friend also had an older Delta. When I started actually shopping my first disappointment was what had become of the Unisaw. I ended up buying a Grizzly 1023S. It still has some of what Delta had.

Reply to
RonB

Bean Counters, Lawyers, and Boards of Directors are destroying the world!

Greg G.

Reply to
Greg G.

So did the knurled ones, problem is that they are paying somebody $20 an hour to pull 'em outta the bin. Then that $20 somebody thinks the employer owes them $12,000 worth of insurance to cover him, his spouse and every other blood relative just because he's a trained knob installer. And now our insured $20 knob installer gets a sliver skateboarding over the weekend, bides his pain till he gets to work on Monday reports for workmans comp because those knurls got slivers in the bin. Now knob installer is off for the next 3 months protected by the FMLA so the employer can't even replace him to keep production up but still collecting some kind of compensation for no work. Then Billybob & associates runs across Knob installers name in the insurance records and convinces him to sue the employer for an exorbitant amount of money for "compensation". Employer knows better than to argue with the insurance company recalling the same insurance company handled the "Miss Offended" case in the broke her nail office scandle of '02. Ponies up the cash and takes another shot on the chin. Just as he sits down thinking he's past this and may be able to keep the doors open one more month sits down to read the notice from those OSHA folks about the knurled knob saftey factor.......

Sigh EJ

Reply to
Eric Johnson

Swingman notes:

The biggest problem with that defense is that at some point, sooner rather than later IME, you're buying used in the cheap shit category, and we're all a lot worse off.

I do not know what the answer is, but it may have something to do with longer term planning for companies, or for less widespread ownership that is better known. When the owners were family, more products stood the test of time because the family reputation was based on their service and honesty. Today, the only thing based on the product is the profit margin for the next 90 days. Long term planning is done for this time next year.

Pfui.

Charlie Self "America does not go abroad in search of monsters to destroy. She is the well-wisher to freedom and independence of all. She is the champion and vindicator only of her own." John Quincy Adams

Reply to
Charlie Self

Or they see it as a calculated risk. Cheapen here, cheapen there and see what the market reaction is. They can always put them back, slap on a new logo and whip up a marketing campaign.

Latest Pop Woodworking has an aside talking about impending cost increases. Manufacturers know they can't always pass them on, or pass them on immediately - they must do it carefully. Cheapen the knobs might be a way, in a bean-counters eyes.

With any luck - there are a number of peer groups in an organization to keep the accountants in check. Just like the accountants nix ideas like titanium wheels with diamond studs.

Or - they get smart and try to course correct before Chapter 11/7.

It's the natural cycle. I'm OK with it. Suppose I'm capable of running a small shop that manufactures Router Bits. When Whiteside, CMT, Freud and Amana give me an opening - I'll take it.

It's an opportunity!

Reply to
patrick conroy

This is the typical product of what is euphemistically called "free market", but in reality is a greed-driven chaos: What to produce is not determined by the need for the product but by its marketability, which can be easily seen by the huge profits made with such utterly useles crap like ringing tones for portable phones, drugs or SUVs.

It will kill all of us, sooner or later...

Reply to
Juergen Hannappel

Maybe the best that can happen is our tool industry will fall to the levels the auto industry did during the 70's. I still remember buying a new Olds Cutlass and finding rust on it within three months. The best the dealer could do was add bondo and let it continue to rust.

Then, the Japaneese moved in and Detroit finally woke up and started building good cars again. Unfortunately a lot of Americans discovered Hondas, Toyotas, Nissans and Volvos in the interim. We are fickle as consumers and it is hard to get us back when we are satisfied with a product.

Reply to
RonB

LOL ... except for my implied "we get what we deserve", that's pretty much what I was getting at. ;>)

Reply to
Swingman

Good points ... but I am still wondering at how easy it is to sell the a gullible consumer the SAME car, made by the same company in the same factory, by just changing its name and almost doubling the price??

Lexus, a rose by any other name smells just... like a Toyota?

I can only surmise that the marketing folks are convinced they are dealing with a bunch of fools ... and they seem to be vindicated thus far in that belief.

Reply to
Swingman

An example is the Jayco line of RVs. founding family brought in a new management team about 8 years ago that lowered quality on which the company was built and prided itself, pissed off the work force andembarassed the dealers. The family resumed control and has spent 5 years or so trying to regain the company's reputation.

I fear that won't happen with Delta, a publicly traded company. What may very well happen is that the Chinese, who learn very fast and have modern production facilities and a motivated work force, will produce tools for an expanded marketplace. Chinese demand for cars is already partly responsible for the increase in gas prices worldwide. According to Paul Leinert, a very experienced auto writer in the latest Automobile magazine, "the market (in China) is expected to double by 2012, then double again before 2020, to 16 million cars a year, about the current size of the U.S. market." After that, China will be the largest market for cars in the world.

The implication is that growing affluence will satisfy a huge demand. That affluence will come in part from China's plan to become the world's machine shop. Watch for some very interesting competition.

Bob

Reply to
Bob Schmall

I do not think that they are good now, perhaps better but still as a hole pale compared to the Japaneese cars. I bought my last American car in 1983. My dad bought his last American car in 1997. My sister and brother in law still buy American and still have the silly probllems. Their latest Crown Victoria 2001 model has the stigma of possibly blowing up if hit from behind and they had to replace the tires at 18,000 miles. It has 22,000 miles on it and they get it realigned every 5,000 miles. They had a 1994 Ford Contour before that and it would stall all the time. They traded it with

45,000 miles on it. Before that a 1990 Mustang that ate starters, flysheels, and starter soleniods. I will say that American Ford and GM trucks are pretty good.

Unfortunately a lot of Americans discovered Hondas, Toyotas, Nissans and Volvos in the interim. We are fickle as

Precisely. Up until 10 years ago I was in Automotive management and was in that field from the time I was in school. Having been a service sales manager for a large Oldsmobile dealer in Houston, I can attest that Oldsmobile got what it deserved. From there I was hired as the GM of an AC Delco whole distributor. We sold only to GM dealers in East Texas. We literally sold thousands of alternators, AC compressors, and starters monthly. I just bought a 2004 Honda Accord EX but looked at the top end Saturns. The Saturns were $3000 cheaper for the same equipment and trim level as the Accord. All my wife and I had to do was sit in the Accord to realize it was that much better.

Reply to
Leon

All my wife and I had to do was sit in the Accord to

A foot note to my comments. I do not doubt for a second that Americans can build great cars. The Accords are American built, but the engineering is Japanese.

Reply to
Leon

It's probably worth writing nasty letters to the company. The bean counters get away with this nonsense primarily because they convince the PHBs in management that no one notices. I'd be willing to bet there are people inside the company that would love to have angry letters from customers as confirmation that people DO notice -- and care.

--RC

Reply to
Rick Cook

The same thing happened in the semiconductor equipment industry in the early

90s. The Japanese started to clobber us in their typical Japanese fashion, American (and European) companies woke up, made major changes, and won back market share. So it can be done.

Whether it will be done with home equipment is another question. Singer used to make the best sewing machines in the world, hands down. Then 'value engineering' set in and they ended up pushing crap made in Brazil. My wife, the expert, won't touch a new Singer, but she still dreams about finding one of the classic ones at a price she can afford.

One thing that will help is if the discerning customers (like the members of this newsgroup) make their opinions heard long and loud at the companies. It's not a cure but it's better than just taking it until we move to stuff from other companies.

--RC

Reply to
Rick Cook

Swingman wrote: [snip]>

One starts with the Camry, add on lots of electronic gadgets and sound/video systems, fancier upholstery and paint, maybe a little bit of sheet metal, a new badge, and voila, a Lexus. If you want all that extra stuff, go for it. I own a Camry and love it.

mahalo, jo4hn

Reply to
jo4hn

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