A waste of time?

[Greg Guarino]

It's been a while, but I have gotten some good advice here.

I'm recycling some 1.5" thick butcher-block style table top material that I got for free. The piece was a weird shape, something like 15" x 84". I wanted to make it about 41"x26" for a small coffee table, although I haven't decided yet what to put underneath the top.

I cut it in half lengthwise and then ripped it down with a circular saw and straightedge. It was difficult due to a not-great saw, a not-great blade and my not-great skills. I kind of butchered it, even doing the cut in three passes, but I was expecting that. I "jointed" the edge with a router, a straightedge and a straight bit, which worked well.

Anyway, despite a heck of a lot of long-grain surface to glue, I decided to use dowels to fasten the two pieces together. I figured that - if nothing else - they would make the alignment easy and nothing would slip when I put the clamps on. It worked well, but were the dowels a waste of time, at least for strength?

[DJ Delorie]

"Waste of time" has to account for all the side-effects. Once the glue sets, the glue should be stronger than the wood, so no other fasteners are needed. But... did the dowels help you assemble it? Did they maintain alignment for you? I use biscuits for all my glue-ups, despite trusting the glue, because overall they're worth the effort.

So no, I don't think they're a waste of time.

[knuttle]

Biscuits are a God send for glue ups and you do not need a biscuit cutter to use them. I use a slot cut bit on my router table.

With one fence to control the positioning of the slot and a second putter kickback fence, I can cut the 8 end grain slots in a picture frame in less than two minutes. I cut the left end of the piece from the right side of the bit, and the right end of the piece from the left side. All perfectly aligned as to pitch and position. With more pieces, the proper arrangement of the pieces, and getting into the swing, the two minutes per 8 pieces can be bettered.

Set up takes 5 to 8 minutes. I have a jig to help with the vertical setting and use a metal ruler to set the horizontal position in the piece.

I have used the same set up without the kick back fence to cut the slot for the pieces to glue up a table top. It takes a little longer, but like the end grain cut they are precisely aligned to the piece. If I were doing this a lot I would work up a jig.

The system is a little difficult to cut the slots in a 4X8 piece of plywood ;-)

[knuttle]

PS: I use the 1/8" X 1 7/8 slot cutter and the Veritas mini Biscuits from Lee Valley that are designed for an 1 7/8 slot.

They fit nicely into a 1X2 board

[J. Clarke]

A common view is that glue is stronger than the wood. But it oversimplifies. Just one issue that is usually not considered is that many commonly used woodworking glues creep if the loads are applied to encourage it. The dowels will prevent that creep.

[krw]

I have a PC plate jointer, used it once and will sell it _cheap_ on eBay some day I get some time and motivation. I thought it was the worst abomination I've ever used. It sounds like a Mack truck with an open exhaust crossed with a locomotive without wheel bearings. The slot is so loose that I don't see how anyone could use the stupid thing. It's been sitting on the shelf for years.

I understood that he was gluing end-grain as well. That never works well.

[Leon]

Absolutely a waste of tome for strength.

[Leon]

Instead of dowels on something this massive, just put a clamp over the joint on each end to insure that both halves are not slipping up or down after you squeeze them together.

[Greg Guarino]

Thanks for the replies. I was happy not to have to worry about the alignment, but I suspected that the dowels were not needed for strength.

[Greg Guarino]

Not end grain. Long grain.

[Bob D]

For me, its not a question of time. It's about stress. I get stressed if I am doing a glue-up that requires jostleing long or heavy pieces. Dowels or dominoes or (pick your own) greatly eliminate stress, especially if you need to use clamps to pull it together in alignment. You don't have to be concerned about the joint slipping around as you try to align it. I like doing things without stress. I'm not going to engage in an argument about strength.

Bob

[Unquestionably Confused]

Depending upon the project, tapping a couple of brads in perpendicular to the mating surface on one board and then snipping off the head leaving just a bit of the brad proud will also do the trick.

Spread the glue, position the pieces and slowly clamp them together. They will not shift.

[Greg Guarino]

So first, that sounds pretty clever. But that only stops the pieces from shifting from whatever position they were in when they first "mate". The dowels also help the pieces mate in the proper alignment, a boon for a guy like me who is low on experience.

[Bob D]

I agree. The brads will hold for some cases but they do not guarantee initial alignment, especially if the glue up is anything but flat on the table. A lot of my joints are done with simple butt joints and dominoes (no rebates or dados). That's just my simple style for things that really don't show.

Bob

[Unquestionably Confused]

Yep, not ideal for all (probably not for most) situations, but it's one more way to skin the cat. If every solution to a problem is a hammer, you ain't trying! ;)

[Leon]

Some things get better with age and a repeated process.

For a long time I never noticed "new car smell" and now "wood smell", and now gluing does not stress me.

The problems with dowels is that they have to be dead on perfectly aligned or the clamping procedure becomes difficult. With Dominos, similar to biscuits, I cut an exact fit for one side and the elongated mortise for the mating side., no stress! ;~)

[knuttle]

I tried this for a while before I got the Slot cutter bit for biscuiting. Problem I found, while theoretically it should go straight into the other piece, it depended on the hardness of the grain.

The different parts of the grain are of different densities. If the hard part was at an angle to the fact of the cut, the nail would raise up a little, miss aligning the pieces.

[Jay Pique]

I've used biscuits, dowels and dominoes but don't really recommend them for most flat-panel glue-ups. That said, if your milling is not great (less than flat, straight and square) dowels could maybe provide a bit of insurance. For most panel glue-ups I just set them on the clamps and adjust them a bit with my thumb and forefinger to align. If it's a larger panel I almost always use slightly curved cauls to hold them in alignment a bit while clamping up. I'll also use an f-clamp or two to pull the ends into alignment if necessary. If I'm really struggling with a glue-up it tends to mean I've not done my milling very well. I'm not some neanderthal that scoffs at anything other than rub joints, but wrenching on clamps to pull boards into alignment for gluing is not something I'd encourage. Lastly, if you use biscuits be sure you leave enough trim allowance on the end so you don't cut into your slots. And if you do decide you don't like that panel layout you'll have slots to deal with if you cut it apart. JP

[Jack]

I've glued up hundreds if not thousands of panels over the years. When I first began, I used dowels, full length slots with plywood splines, even all thread rods. I quickly learned that none of that was needed at all, and just made an easy task more difficult.

The important part is the boards need to be flat, joints smooth and square. Minor adjustments can be made with cauls if needed, but your better off if your wood is milled flat and square.

Using dowels is a task in it's self, and if alignment isn't perfect, then the glue up will not be perfect. Much easier w/o dowels. Biscuits are easy to use I guess, but if you don't need them for alignment, no reason to use them. Glue itself is stronger than the wood.

Were dowels a waste of time... Probably not, you at least learned how to use dowels and get things lined up. Consider it a learning experience.

I recently cut up an old table top I glued up 50 years ago for a lathe project. Towards the end of the turning F*&%ing dowels turned up in the middle of turning, spoiling the turning. At first I wondered what was happening as a weird defect turned up in the wood.

[Greg Guarino]

I was thinking that too, even as I did it. Thanks for the advice.