That one ^^^
'Exterminate', ah, part Dalek, that explains a lot about you!
Q. Would these breeds be here if we hadn't bred them? If no then if we didn't keep breeding them and they died out, nothing has changed.
You don't need a full stop and question mark.
What, that I'm not a scientist? Who said I was?
For you, it will be from the top of the hole you keep digging, probably by someone thinking it was a wishing well.
Cheers, T i m
You really are thick aren't you? Get your carer to explain where to you, just from the text left in this post.
Lovely, thanks for the weather check.
Of course you aren't. And by 'my', you would have to consider the weather all around the world as that's where you will find people caring about animals.
Cheers, T i m
You are clueless. There are millions of animals alive and part of the food chain.
No they don't 'look after themselves'. Are you going to let them all roam free in national parks because in case you hadn't noticed, most land in the UK is privately owned. You don't use a 3/4 tonne dairy cow to cut your grass, unless you want it to look like the Somme during wet weather. Where are they going to be kept during the winter ?. Who is going to spend a fortune on fertiliser to grow grass for silage or hay, who is going to spend hundreds of thousands of pounds on the heavy duty machinery needed to cut, dry, bale, double-chop and move it into storage ?.
They live a lot longer than 5 years. High performance Dairy Bulls are valuable animals. They are very dangerous animals too. By law they have to be contained and well away from the public, or are you suggesting that such animals should be abandoned in Epping forest or Hyde park ?. Totally clueless idiocy.
No they aren't. Just because vets occasionally treat some injured wild animals for free does not extend to treating millions of abandoned farm animals for free. Grow up. Without any farm animals there won't be any need for anything like the number of vets we have now. QED If they cannot earn a living from farm animals many will go abroad. Most of our Vetinary colleges would close. Who would want to be a vet with no prospect of work ?. Without large animals to train on, the only skills they would have is working with pets. It won't take long for all the knowledge of large animals to be lost, permanently.
You must be almost down the earths core now in the deep, deep hole you are digging into *?.*
Please answer the question !
I am *out* there, in the real world where there are 7,800,000,000 people who need food to survive. This is what animals are for, and always have been. The business of feeding all those people is a significant part of the worlds GDP and employment (and tax revenues to pay your 'free' NHS and pension)
Seriously, what is the vegan attitude to eating or exploiting insects?
Bill
Well, I can't speak on behalf of all vegans on this (and there are different types, like dietary and ethical) but we are getting right down the lower end of the 'it's a life' scale and it's suggested that flies (maybe only some, could be all) don't have any pain receptors so at least that would be one aspect we wouldn't have to consider.
Cheers, T i m
I have/do try alternatives - very little if any meat in the house. Most of the veg/vegan processed meals (burgers, pies etc.) are not healthy in any sense that I can see. So insofar as I buy/eat that sort of junk - maybe once a week
- it'll be vegetable. Bought some vegan cheese earlier - I may be some time :-)
That was how I was brought up - and I still do that occasionally - but the 'meat' will be something veg-processed like a frozen pie. Mostly it's soups, curries, and pasta sauces.
I'll have an egg a day in some form. That i think would be the most difficult habit to give up. I'd like to think that I could reconcile eating eggs with non-human animal decency, having looked after some hens for a while. But a vegan friend it pretty hostile to the suggestion - to the point that he thinks it's so obviously abhorrent that he hasn't explained/we haven't discussed in any depth.
I suspect I'm lucky in the sense that I'm not that in to food. I'm only half joking when I tell people (if asked) that my favourite food is toast :-)
On Sat, 1 May 2021 08:26:16 +0000 (UTC), RJH snipped-for-privacy@gmx.com wrote:
Gdgd.
True, other than whilst still being processed, aren't 'the worst / rubbish meat' but just plants. ;-)
Same here. One of the 1/4 lb'er 'No Bull' sized burgers in a wholemeal (warmed) bun with some fried onion, mushroom, melted scheese and relish and I'd say you get 100% of the 'satisfaction' you get from a 'real' burger but without all the animal suffering and death, environmental or as many health issues (directly and indirectly ... from the pollution etc).
Scheese is accepted as still being a tricky one, if we are talking of
*just* comparing taste. Functionally (slicing, melting, using, eating) it's pretty well identical and as long as you are using it in ways where it plays more a functional role (texture, melted in a burger) than straight taste. Again, we don't 'miss' cheese because 1) I was already advised off dairy by the doctor 5+ years ago and 2) we only have to think of the animal suffering and we would rather just go without. The problem is the assumption that we had the right to any of this stuff in the first place and we didn't. Cows milk exists *only* to feed it's own offspring, just as human breast milk only exists to feed human offspring and we would (should) think that the consumption of the growth fluid from another species just as weird as expressing human breast milk to give to our dog or cat. Not to say there aren't times when that sort of thing can be done, like if a young animal, rescued because it's mother was killed through human intervention, could be weaned from a 'wet nurse' from a similar species. You wouldn't generally get that 'wet nurse' pregnant via artificial insemination, take it's own young away and kill it, just to do that. ;-(Me too, and I would imagine most of the folk here were. That's where it all started, just as it would have been different if we happened to have been born in a different culture where we did regularly eat grubs or didn't eat meat at all.
Yeah, even the likes of 'Pukka pies' have got in on the vegan thing now. ;-)
And that's the thing, there are *loads* of foods out there that many have never tried (we hadn't) and are actually both highly nutritious and very tasty. They are just 'food' of course and I think the marketing should reflect the 'costs', like they do with cigarettes now. You have (vegan) 'food', and all the animal based stuff that's 'With suffering'. ;-)
As did I, well, maybe a couple every other day, poached egg for lunch and I really enjoyed them.
Again, you are right with the 'habit' thing there, or 'bad habit' if you are a chicken of course. ;-)
If you are lucky enough to be born a male chicken (~50% are) in the egg 'industry' you can look forward to one days life before being fed live though a macerator. If you are unlucky enough to be born a female you can look forward to having the tip of you beak lasered off (your primary sensory / manipulation organ) and then spending the rest of your 'life' 'cooped up' (the origin of the term for being constrained in a small space), even if you are in a shed with 10,000 other birds, and bred to produce ~300 eggs a year, not the 10-15 you would lay 'naturally'. A chicken can recognise and around max 100 others and when placed in a shed with 10,000 becomes frustrated and will peck others (hence the need to the beak trimming). They would normally be in a small flock and can individually recognise only that many, that's why they become frustrated with more. Also, a chicken would try to build a small clutch of eggs and sit on them (like most other birds of course) and when you constantly take them away, that frustrates them further. And to add insult to human made misery, the constant production of eggs and when being denied the opportunity to eat any themselves, causes a calcium deficiency and so leads to weak / broken bones and a reproduction system that is exhausted after 18 months and so they are 'no longer productive at an industrial level' and so often disposed off like scrap machinery. They don't get to live anything like a 'natural life' that could be 7 years in the wild.
Also, having thousand and thousands of birds in such close proximity is an avian pandemic waiting to happen (and I think we have something ongoing now)?
Well, that can be 'a good thing' for them (and better than in with thousands of others) but it would really mean you just 'looking after' them (providing them food and shelter) and that means not taking their eggs away. I'm not sure how practical that would be ITRW and so better to just stop breeding and exploiting them in the first place. ;-(
Hopefully the above might fill in any missing info and daughter used to think it was the meat industry that was the worst but now feels the dairy / egg are.
And that's more 'natural' than what some of done re turning the consumption of food required for survival into a hobby, crutch or lifestyle, something many around the world can't enjoy, *because* of the over consumption of the others. Plus we have the antibiotic resistance (the next *big* issue for humanity) and the feeding of an ever increasing world population (well, till the next animal sourced pandemic takes even more of us out) using meat as an inefficient stepping stone between the veg the animals themselves eat and us. All of what I say there is the current thinking and supported by all the science.
No, I get you, whilst it (in itself) isn't 'a balanced diet', baked beans on wholemeal bread / toast is supposed to be pretty good (especially for impoverished students) and I will often just do us a couple of slices of (home made wholegrain) toast, one with Marmite and one with jam or just plain. ;-)
The whole thing about veganism is allowing people to align their actions with their morals. Most wouldn't hurt an animal but are doing so when they buy meat, eggs or dairy of course. But they have the socially programmed, constantly bombarded by adverts for milk, eggs and meat over the years (like no one knows they exist) when they should have been pushing the veg (and now are of course).
For all vegans, (and vegetarians re meat etc) we know that the easiest / best way to stop all this animal suffering and death is to stop supporting it ourselves. Directly impact the demand and to the supply. If they can't make money from the exploitation of animals they won't do it and will have to move onto better, healthier and more suffering free and sustainable things (as many are already of course).
As a very wild aside to that, I saw something where a petting farm had a sort of stocks for the goats where they could be held still whilst kids brushed stroked them. They were bombarded by people explaining how that was hardly the right way to treat an animal or a good way to train children to treat animals and they quickly apologised and stopped that practice. See, some people (esp those IN the 'live stock industry'), really don't see the issue with treating an animal like that and why they need 'reminding' for fear of ending up on some social media 'justice' (in support of the animal welfare).
If they goat didn't want to stand there to be brushed, then maybe it shouldn't be forced to.
This is the problem I have with veganism: the fact that you (and other vegans) would rather go without than compromise animal suffering. For me, the needs/desires of humans comes first. If those can be satisfied without compromising animals, so much the better.
Humans have eaten meat and animal products (milk, eggs), and used animal products (wool, leather) for millennia. Now that almost-alternatives are available for some of these, vegans are deciding to shun the animal products. Fine - that is their choice. I respect it, even if I don't agree with it. As long as (like religion) they keep their beliefs to themselves and don't try to foist them on everyone else. In the case of religion and veganism, the more someone tries to make me feel guilty or inferior, with emotional/emotive arguments, the more strongly I will resist.
What is the best alternative for leather - for shoes, belts etc? Plastic, probably, but plastic has a bad press these days. You can't do right for doing wrong :-( And what about horse saddles - always assuming that vegans permit the riding of horses for pleasure, now that they are no longer needed for farming/haulage.
There is a danger that vegans come across as killjoys - you can't do this and you can't do that because it subjugates or harms animals. If anything in life is enjoyable, there will be a vegan argument somewhere for not doing it. Would most people want to live in a vegan world, given all the changes that it would force on them?
The problem I have is that he starts off by assuming something as nebulous and ill defined as 'right' actually exists.
The he compounds it by implying its a universal quality, not just a human thing.
It's pure Marxist bollocks. Star off by assuming an absolute moral position that is entirely unsupported by dialectical materialism, which is allegedly what Marxism espouses, and go on to 'prove' a load of socialist spaff...
Neither humans nor animals have any rights at all. Let's start from there.
Yes, it's funny eh? Long article in the Times Magazine today about the Chinese behaviour regarding the Uighur minority. Not something that luvvies bother much about, though.
Of course it does or we would still be killing each other and hunting everything and in most advanced / civilised places round the world and we obviously aren't.
BS.
It's pure your denial.
You do talk some bollox in an effort to justify your selfish carnist position.
Neanderthal humans possibly, some of us have evolved since then.
You can start back there if you want.
Cheers, T i m
You have a very strange sense of humour.
Yup, being 'looked into' by all sorts of people.
I don't know about you but people *are* very much looking at the Uighur issue, along with loads of other human on human stuff.
But funnily enough (or not etc), the Uighur are within China as voiceless as most the livestock around the world ...
Cheers, T i m
I'd not seen my wallet for about week, a week ago, and there had been reports on Facebook of some scrote going around the area checking cars. The chance of me leaving my wallet in the car would be slim, and of also leaving it unlocked would be slim ^2. I'd checked my online banking and there'd been no activity but as a precaution I decided to cancel the cards it contained.
I'd given up hope of seeing it again, yesterday was day 14, when "do you want the box your dash cam came in?" the missus asked. I'd unpacked it on the dining table which had since been tidied and it was neatly out of the way behind a TV with some other bits and pieces.
No prizes for guessing what was in it. FFS.
A lot of people confuse 'tidy' with 'organised'.
I am not tidy. But I can usually find most things fairly quickly.
Owain
Stuff gets put away for a variety of reasons. I guess the trick is to work out the particular reason your item is missing.
A favourite with us is the button set for the digital radio. Normally to hand on the dining table or nearby. Every second Thursday it disappears from sight. Cleaning lady is expected!
Cleaning lady has a routine where everything on a surface has to be re-positioned. Why she can't put it back where it was found remains a mystery.
No chance here.
If I can't easily find something, I know it's been "put away", totally without any semblance of organisation.
This is why we have sheds, garages, allotments and pidgeon lofts :-)
...and box-rooms with audio equipment, record collections and PCs?
HomeOwnersHub website is not affiliated with any of the manufacturers or service providers discussed here. All logos and trade names are the property of their respective owners.