Stud wall advice

I'm in the process of converting two kitchen cupboards into a downstairs toilet. I've knocked through a new doorway from the hall and I am now going to block off the cupboard doors and knock the two cupboards into one.
The two doors are next to each other with only the thickness of the (soon to be removed) dividing wall between them. Originally I planned to fill the double door size with breeze blocks to form a solid wall but a friend convinced me that a stud wall would be a lot easier.
My only concern is that some time in the future I will need to utilise this new wall space for wall mounted kitchen units to recover some of the lost space from the old built in cupboards. I'm worried about hanging these units on a stud wall. One friend has recommended fixing 18mm plywood sheeting under the plasterboard on the kitchen side of the stud wall. Another friend has said that this is an overkill and that with the correct fixings, I should be fine with just the plasterboard.
I'd appreciate a few more opinions please.
I'd also like to use some sort of sound insulation in the partition to ensure that we don't hear people using the loo from the kitchen. Any recommendations?
TIA,
--
Paul Giverin

British Jet Engine Website http://www.britjet.co.uk
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Stud partition wall might be easier, but a block wall, rendered and skimmed would be better IMO.

A stud wall will carry the weight (especially if you use something like 4" x 2"). With regards to fixing the wall units, the best thing to do is to work out the approximate locations of the units and fit sufficient 4" x 2" 'noggin' in those areas to screw the units to and then plasterboard the studding as normal.
I wouldn't recommend using just the plasterboard for unit fitting as there is very little sterngth in that. What you could do, is use a reduced thickness nogin method in the fixing area and then screw some plywood to this and then carry out plasterboarding as normal.

No matter what sound insulation you place between the studding, noise will travel through the wall via the studs that the plasterboard is nailed to. If want a high level of noise insulation, then you build two stud walls with something like a two to four inch gap between them and then fill that gap entirely with (I believe) a 'dense' type of insulation.
Hope this is of some use Paul?
Brian G
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Install Rockwool bats in the space. Nice and tight. Use Fermacell plasterboard. It is pre-finished and similar to MDF: http://www.fermacell.co.uk/ No plastering, use a type of filler to fill the gaps and holes. It screws to the studs
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Doctor Drivel Wrote:

Personally i'd go with a block wall. Its not to big a project for DI and the results are always going to be better with regards to soun insulation and fixings. A double door size opening is only about 40 blocks so it shouldn't tak you long, you can hire a mixer or lend one from a mate. You'll need t tie the blocks in at each end but you can use bolt on "furfix" typ profiles. If the plasterings a problem then you can always dry line it again not a difficult job. I would guess from the fact you've started the job that your fairl competent with the tools so go for it
-- Nick H
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Thanks Nick for the advice and thanks to everyone else for their input.
I'm going to give some more thought about using blocks. Obviously it will be better for strength and for sound insulation. I initially thought it would be more costly as I'd have to hire a mixer and then have the wall rendered and plastered on both sides. A stud wall would have just required a skim but I suppose the cost of the timber, plasterboard, plywood (if needed for strength) and sound insulation would probably cost just as much.
I've not done a lot of bricklaying (brick BBQ's and other garden projects) but I'm sure I'll be fine if I take it slowly.
Thanks again.
--
Paul Giverin

British Jet Engine Website http://www.britjet.co.uk
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writes

No.
No. Fermacell each side a dense bats will equal a block. Fermacell requires no skimming. No wet skills at all required.
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Paul Giverin wrote:

I don't think I'd bother with a mixer for a job that size personally; especially if you're new to bricklaying you won't be particularly quick. But if you do, it only a one-day hire from HSS is only about a tenner. Assuming you were going to pay for a pro to skim the stud partition, then if you diy'ed the plaster basecoat on your block wall (which isn't rocket science) then you're just left with the same cost of hiring a pro to do the skimming.
David
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writes

This is madness. He is only wanting a small amount of walling and some filling and they tell him, to use blocks and wet plasters. Madness. Simpler, easier and less hassle and skill solutions are there.
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So you consider there's no skill needed to build a stud partition wall properly?
Figures, given you've never built anything.
--
*Also too, never, ever use repetitive redundancies *

Dave Plowman snipped-for-privacy@davenoise.co.uk London SW
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flatulenec wrote in message wrote:> > This is madness. He is only wanting a small amount of walling and some

** snip babbling senility **
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flatulence wrote in message wrote:> > This is madness. He is only wanting a small amount of walling and some

** snip senile babble **
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Doctor Drivel wrote:

DD,
From what Paul has described, 'filling' the hole with block etc is the correct way to resolve the job.
It it utter madness to use a single stud wall if you require any modicum of sound insulation (as stated in the OP) because no matter how you stuff insulation into it the sound WILL travel though the studs.
To get a 'soundproof' stud wall, you have to build two of the little beggars with a gap in between so that that the frame works are NOT touching and then fill this gap with the relevant sound insulation - this by the way, is from over forty years of experience and of being involved in constructing the 'odd soundproof' room using both concrete blocks and stud partitions.
In this type of job, cost effectiveness may well decide the outcome of what materials are used anyway!
Brian G
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writes

It isn't. It is one way.

Spaced studs then. Easy.

No. Just spaced studs, easy.

then
from
I am not impressed. Thin spaced studs, dense Rockwool bats, and dense (like MDF) prefinished Fermacell. I have doen it. It works "very" well indeed. As the spaced studs will be thin, the centres are narrower to give more racking.

Also the skill levels. My way there are no wet skills, apart fom some filler. Some power tools and away you go. As the level of work is not that great, cost is not an issue.
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Doctor Drivel wrote:

That just happens to be the correct way!

All stud partitions are 'spaced' studs by the very nature of the construction. To get sound insulation you have to stop the sound from travelling from one side of the wall to the other - ergo a 'double' stud partition - unless of course that is what you mean by 'spaced' studs and if that is the case, then I am correct.

You have to have a 'gap between the studs supporting the finished faces - easy when you know how!

I'm beginning to think that you are Fermacell rep!

Skill level? I think that you are being a little demeaning here to the OP and others! It takes a fair amount of skill to properly build a stud partition, especially one that is soundproof - anyway, if it's that easy, then you cannot be all that skilled can you, as that is the only method that you are proposing?
In this case, I consider the OP to be far more skilled than you for the following reasons:
1 He has chosen to ask for advice, and taken heed of the advice given.
2 He is prepared to 'have a go' at different methods of construction using different skills.
Brian G
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writes

It is NOT the correct way, idiot!

They are not. Find out what spaced studs are. I have built a stud wall using 2x2" spaced studs at 300mm centres and Fermacell. Brilliant and easy. The stiff Fermacell stiffens up the whole wall. No stud traverses the wall from side to side causing a sound bridge, or thermal bridge for that matter

It is called "spaced studs", NOT double studs. Spaced studs are staggered.

It is easy, just space them.

Nope. Just used the stuff. It is brilliant. Stiff with excelent thermal and acoustic properties. Gives excellent racking strength, fire resistance (only one layer needed), hang cupboards off it, etc. Find out about it. Read the URL I gave. It works out cheaper using this stuff than gypsum and a skim, and the gypsum wall does not have all the properties of Fermacell.

Read what I wrote. It is clear you have never evenm heard of Fermacell. All he needs is some power tools and a use some filler to fill the screw holes and gaps. A brilliant wall. Look at:http://www.fermacell.co.uk/acousticres.html It says:
"ACOUSTIC RESISTANCE
Fermacell unique composition and density make it ideal for acoustic partitions and solving sound related problems. Simple party wall constructions, single layer stud partitions that conform to the latest Part E requirements without insulation and much more. Click on the link below for general acoustic information, or navigate to the constructions section in each of the building elements links above.
Partitions up to 66 dB Building Regulations part 'E'* Upgrading party walls Special flooring element Cinema walls
For acoustic problems generally For the latest acoustic information, including Part E, BB93, HTM56 and Robust Details, please visit http://www.acousticregs.info *Part 'H' in Scotland Technical Booklet 'G' in Northern Ireland "
It meets the regs. Part E, without sound insulation between the studs. That is just a sheet either side.
Also see the selfbuild FAQ. People who use it a lot. http://www.borpin.co.uk/sbfaq/faq51078.htm
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Doctor Drivel wrote:

It is FOOL! ROTFLMAO at you and your one track mind

There we go again, Fermacell! Must be the only way you now how to build? Sigh!! AND if you use this (or any other type of sheet) to stiffen up the studding, then you are not doing it right - correctly constructed stud partitions need no stiffening to hold 'em up.

But do they touch each other? if not. in effect its a double partition. You have to put up TWO sets of studs to prevent sound transmission. BTW, it's a method that I was using to construct soundproofed offices on factory floors waaaay back in the 1960's

There's not a recyled material board that I would willingly hang any units off!

Ah! One of those 'cowboys' who thinks that by buying an electric drill, a power saw with a vacuum attachment and hiring a staple gun to fix boards with, they can bodge anything up.

Ah! I see, when all else fails, quote the regs - the very same regs that were brought out many years ago to suit various 'modern' methods and materials, yet never seemed to successfully work! Hence all the problems that we are getting from noise transferrence, condensation et al.
Seen all this before as a poor young apprentice back in the 1960s, a wiser carpenter, an even craftier CoW and and even wiser and craftier general foreman - ah well! I'm glad that early retirement beckoned. :-)
As I said DD, it is obvious from the fact that you stick rigidly to a ONE system fits all mentality - and sod anyone elses ideas, YOUR skills need a little honing - and if you're doing it for a living, rather than DIY, then 'nuff said.
BTW, I do now what Fermacell is, and what it does, along with many other types of so-called 'do everything wonder boards' - had to have that knowledge in the past.
Brian G
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studding,
need
Big deal eh!

factory
Been around for a long time.

Please. You say you are a professional. It is clear you have NO experience of Fermacell whatsoever. So you CANNOT comment.

Good for you.

Do you have any data? No, you just prattle unbaked opinions of materials you have not come across. How British.

Fermacell wasn't around then. So you haven't seen anything at all. Look at the links I gave.
** snip babbling **
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Doctor Drivel wrote:

a lot.

Doctor Drivel,
A very apt name for the amount of bull that you are spouting, and I suppose this little snippet " Part Time World-Wide Playboy" in your headers says many things about your attitudes - probably reflects in job that you do as well?
It is most obvious that your 'experience has been gained in the *Cowboy School of Builders* and it is also patently obvious that unless something is built out of 2" x 2" framing covered with Ferma-whatever it is then it is beyond your understanding and as a result, I have no option but give you your 'pictures' - pick 'em up from the timekeeper as you're going off-site - goodbye he says shutting the office door.
And I iterate that I am aware of, but not impressed with, the product that you are continuously referring to, even though in the case of the OP, it is an unsuitable material to use in *that* situation.
All replies from DD will now be ignored. LOL
Brian G
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Yes.
You are clearly not up on this topic are you?

A play boy is a play boy, and I am one.

You are then one castigating a material you know sweet FA about and have never used. That sounds very silly to me, but there again you are a British builder, so it all fits.

See you don't know. But by God you know all the answers.

It is clear you know sweet FA about it and have never used it. Made and extensively used in Germany who build better houses than us.

In that situation it the ideal choice. Nothing worse than cowboy British builders. Scum the lot of them. A total disgrace.
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Doctor Drivel wrote: [snip]

That's funny? in the 80's the Germans prefered British brickies rather than any other nationality brickie when the Germans wouldn't work for lower pay, in fact all manner of construction workers where British and you know what makes me laugh there where no yanks on any of the many sites. -- Sir Benjamin Middlethwaite
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