Sliding mitre saw anyone?

[Dave Plowman (News)]

Since you claim never to buy cheap tools on principle you have no idea whether they are suitable or not. My findings are they are suitable for many jobs I do. As, apparently, do others.

[The Medway Handyman]

I bought my DeWalt RAS 25+ years ago thinking it was the answer to all my woodworking needs. Tried ripping once or twice & never done it since :-)

[Andy Hall]

It's not an issue of not buying tools cheaply on principle. I don't want to spend money needlessly. However, I do set certain basic requirements:

- What are the set of tasks now and during the expected life of the tool that I will have for it?

- Will it do those with the precision and ease of use that I require?

- Is the construction of good quality and likely to safe in use for the expected lifetime of the tool?

- Does it use industry standard consumables?

- What are the spares arrangements?

- What are the service arrangements?

- Am I convinced that the reliability will be such that service will rarely be required if at all?

- If I have a problem, am I convinced that the retailer and the manufacturer will take responsibility for it?

The first two of these are the basic qualifying criteria. Safety over lifetime and industry standard consumables are an absolute requirement.

For the last four, I do not consider that a three year guarantee with replacement or refund but no spares or service is an acceptable solution. This means that the product has a three year lifetime as far as I am concerned. Therefore as a minimum I will add in the cost of going to make at least one replacement during the guarantee and another at the end. Those costs would need to be balanced against a

5,10 or 20 year lifetime of something with better quality with proper service backup.

For the case in point of SCMS products, I have tried out models at a wide range of price points to assess their suitability. On some, it's possible to determine that they fall down at the first few hurdles just by examination of a display model. For example, are the guards flimsy, is there play in the mechanisms and are the slides less than silky smooth? If a product passed the first four criteria, I might even be prepared to forego the last four, but I have yet to find a sub £100 SCMS that does. Also at this price point, the cost of making one replacement during warranty and one at the end have to be added in directly and will be equal to or exceeding the purchase price.

Some in the £100 - 200 range may pass some of these tests but I have never seen one that does all. At that price range I am going to be much more serious about the service and spares requirements. For example, if it's not possible to buy spare guards etc. the item is a write off as soon as it breaks.

There is then a gap in the market with few if any products until around £400. At that price point, one can begin to find products that meet all of the criteria above.

In all of this, safety above all is the prime consideration, followed by time and suitability. On these bases, I couldn't afford to buy a £50 SCMS, they are much too expensive.

I guess that you must have different criteria or weight them differently.

[Andy Hall]

A few years ago I looked into these as a possible candidate for the workshop and looked at them at a woodworking exhibition. The head locking mechanism seemed surprisingly floppy so I asked the DW person about it. He told me that that particular machine had had "quite a bit of use" with the head being reoriented quite a bit which eventually causes wear and sloppiness. He went on to say that most people use them in cross cutting mode and have the head well and truly locked in that position. "In any case there are more convenient ways to rip", he concluded.

I suppose that that was one way to put it. Having then seen videos of what can happen with attempting to rip, that particular machine was taken off of the list of candidates. I have never found anything that I have wanted to do that can't be done either on the table saw or SCMS.

[dennis]

I agree, don't buy any of the recommended saws until you know what the job is. Then you can buy the best one for that job.

[dennis]

They still move and they still stick.

[dennis]

No you don't as you don't know the saw in question.

Yes. Do you know the effect of fitting a tipped blade rather than a plain steel blade? Do you know the effect of fitting say a Bosch blade to a Makita saw?

Does one care on a saw that is causing a minor irritation and isn't going to be repaired anyway?

[Dave Plowman (News)]

That can very much apply to paying 500 quid when a similar tool is available for 50.

How do you determine the 'expected life'? Plus those tasks will be different for individuals.

Most will be safe if used correctly. Buying a 'name' doesn't guarantee perfection in this respect.

No such thing.

Again, no maker guarantees spares forever - and some charge a ridiculous amount for them.

Might be a factor if used heavily. For DIY occasional use no service or repair might be needed ever. They're not like a car which requires routine servicing.

With any device whatsoever that depends on many things. All they are obliged to do is comply with the law.

Well, if a 50 quid tool has a three year warranty, do you expect a 'name' of the same sort at 500 quid to have a 30 year one?

This is really the crunch. I'm fed up hearing makers imply their products are so good and expensive they will last a lifetime. But still only offer a standard warranty. It's the lower end of the market which is pushing this forward.

You seem to think that all cheap power tools will fail with moderate use within that 3 year period or slightly after. That can't be the case or the makers would go out of business. Even if they were designed to have a three year life the nature of such things means they will *usually* last a great deal longer. For those which don't you'll get a free replacement - usually of a different design - so unless very unlucky get 6 years use minimum.

You take into account your possible costs of going to get a tool replaced under warranty - but then don't object to the same thing for repairs?

Again, you assume it will fail. That patently isn't the case with the majority.

Most simply can't afford 500 quid for an occasionally used tool. 50 quid, maybe. And this is a DIY group - not rec.pro.cabinetmaker or whatever.

And that's the point.

[The Medway Handyman]

When I bought my DeWalt SCMS's wern't generally available, I've never had any issues with the head locking mechanism in 25 years regular use, superb engineering, but then they don't build them like that anymore......

I've used it with a dado head, sanding attachments, drilling attachments etc, but when ripping you are nearer to Heaven than earth.

[stuart noble]

You're wasting your time, Dave. Lidl and Aldi must be exterminated. Have you got that?

[Andy Hall]

.. and certainly don't buy on impulse from a discount supermarket because it happens to have a low price tag

[Andy Hall]

The question then is the degree to which it is similar. In this example, the £500 SCMS ticks all of my boxes, the £50 one perhaps ticks one or two if I'm lucky.

I consider the projects that I am likely to undertake in 1,2,5 and 10 , and in some cases 20 year timeframes

They will.

It does. I set pretty high requirement on both of those.

I wish that I shared your confidence.

No, but it does guarantee that at least due diligence has been done in terms of engineering responsibility, certification, product liability and recourse.

In many cases there is. For example, 30mm bore is an industry standard for larger diameter saw blades. I have seen cheap chop saws around with blades having 23mm and other funny numbers.

One should obviously research spares availability and pricing policy. That is done for other purchases such as cars and washing machines, so it's reasonable to do so for power tool and machine purchases.

I wish I shared your optimism. I have had and seen cases of "DIY grade" power tools failing catastrophically in the first few minutes of use.

The question then becomes one of how the problem is going to be resolved.

- Is the retailer going to arrange repair or replacement?

- Is the retailer going to pay for my time to return/replace the defective product without a lot of argument?

- Are they just shipping in product by the containerload from China with no backup at all other than a replacement? What happens when the container is empty?

- If there is a distributor in the middle offering a warranty, what will they do?

No I don't. There are other reasons for spending £500 on an SCMS than a theoretical 10x lifetime. For example, it meets usabiliity, precision and safety criteria.

Beyond that one has to look at the build quality, track record of the manufacturer on that tool type and service arrangements.

That equation isn't about warranty.

A standard warranty of (e.g.) a year is irrelevant. If I have purchased a higher end product, I will and have successfully argued that upwards with the retailer and the manufacturer. Practically speaking, failure rates are small, so I don't regard a shorter warranty for a quality power tool to be an issue.

Manufacturers at the high end such as Festool have migrated painlessly to a one year warranty with two years on top if you register the product details. For them it's a great way to get product feedback and to sell the customer something else.

For the low end players it's a way to take a sales objection off of the table.

That depends on the business model. It also depends on whether the customer bothers to return the product or simply buys another.

Typically I will buy the spares. However, it has seldom meant things other than consumables such as brushes etc. The equation is one of what the options are.

The point here is that if the low end item fails, the cost of getting it replaced approaches the cost of the item. Then in effect, the cost of ownership doubles for each event.

You are equating DIY to low cost and low quality. That is not necessarily a reasonable correlation.

Of course, but it is not reasonable to say that a £50 tool equates to DIY whereas a £500 equates to high end cabinetmaking. While it is true that the £50 probably doesn't equate to cabinet making, it certainly is not the case that the £500 does not equate to DIY use.

[stuart noble]

Good advice. Most of us are too stupid to make that kind of decision

[Andy Hall]

I am talking about the principle of modifying aspects of power tools and machinery that may have an impact on safety. That is a general point.

I suppose that depends on how concerned one is about trips to the hospital to address injuries.

[Dave Plowman (News)]

Just trying to educate Andy into spending his money more wisely than simply relying on names. The time might come when he's not so wealthy. ;-)

[Dave Plowman (News)]

I've often bought a new type of power tool to see if I like it. Usually by seeing it in the sheds, etc. Not trade magazines. If I like the principle of the tool but find it lacking in performance with time and experience of it, I might well buy a better one. A prime example would be a jigsaw. The first one I bought was an accessory for a power drill and it worked after a fashion but was awkward in shape. I then bought a B&D one. Much better - but with flaws. Used it for several years. When finances permitted I bought the Bosch I still use, which performs perfectly for my needs. Which has failed and cost quite a bit for the spare parts - more than a cheap one could be bought for today. And I'm not a heavy user.

Throughout this timescale I bought what I could afford - a pro jigsaw when I bought the attachment would have been utterly outside my budget.

Very, very few have unlimited funds to spend on a hobby.

BTW, non of the cheap power tools I've got has actually failed. But two of the mid to upper range ones have - the Bosch jigsaw and an expensive B&D router.

So my experience is price doesn't necessarily buy reliability.

[Andy Dingley]

The thing to have is the Eumenia(?) gadget that Axminster sold a few years ago. Looked like a RAS, but the arm was supported at both ends rather than cantilevered and it had no intention of getting involved with ripping. For plywood work up to about 3' square (i.e. most of kitchen fitting) there's nothing to touch it, for either convenience, safety or accuracy. It takes up far less workshop space than a cabinet saw with a sliding table too.

[dennis]

Terrible crime to commit that.. did it myself 30 mins ago.. bought an ultra sonic cleaner reduced to £10. Hope it doesn't maim an unsuspecting user.

[The Medway Handyman]

Nail, hit, head. You simply cannot justify spending £500 on a SCMS for DIY use unless you are rich beyond reason. Thats more than the average weekly wage in the UK which means many earn a lot less. Its two & a half times what someone on minimum wage earns in a week.

For many its a question of a £50 SCMS or not having one at all.

[Andy Hall]

This statement does not make sense because you are limiting DIY to something that implies low cost and quality. The important issue is cost effectiveness.

Is everybody meant to be making the same?

If it doesn't do a worhwhile job, then for somebody for whom £50 is a major investment, the conclusion would be that it's a poor investment and better avoided.