Seems the retro fad continues - sail power

[The Natural Philosopher]

Name one.

If its long lived it isn't highly dangerous, by definition.

[The Natural Philosopher]

The only ones of any concern at all are caesium 137 (half life 30 years) and strontium 90 (half life 28 years) because they are bioactive, and have half lives long enough to be around for a hundred years or so. But they are safe enough if stored underwater.

[The Natural Philosopher]

Of course it is but Andrew has been reading the guardian or the communist manifesto or something and is all emotional about the wrong things.

[alan_m]

Assuming you don't also need the same plants to feed the world population.

[The Natural Philosopher]

Well if you look at the consumption of oil by the petrochemical industry as feedstock versus energy, the amount required for feedstock is pretty low.

When oil and gas become uneconomic to drill for energy, if people want plastics it might still be competitive....

AND once you HAVE fed the people biodigesters that produce methane from their shit are just fine to make chemical hydrocarbon feedstocks :-)

[Tim Streater]

It's around 5 to 10%, AIUI. The rest is burned.

[Rod Speed]

That is not assumed. The plastics used for blood transfusion doesnt use enough plants to matter feeding the world population wise.

[The Natural Philosopher]

I didn't think it was even that high.

But you seem to be right.

How much of that is however essential, is another matter.

If the case on your mobile phone was polycarbonate or polylacytl, how much would you care?

Or if instead of acrylics fibre, your hoody was made of recycled bamboo fibre?

As prices climb upwards, anything that can be made of something cheaper, will be.

I'm probably far more worried about the high price of fertiliser when natural gas prices soar.

But there again, surplus nuclear electricity could manufacture it. Once you have built the reactors.

[Paul]

Paul

[Paul]

It's a "wind assisted design", not a "wind powered design".

The intention is to occasionally reduce fuel consumption on the trip.

The owners want primary propulsion systems with predictable delivery times. Maybe the ship shows up half a day early, with the sail assist. And the oil bill is a tiny bit smaller.

Paul

[Rod Speed]

Doesnt say that its constand and dependable

[Rod Speed]

Doesnt work like that with modern ships and isnt feasible on a container ship anyway

So sail assist can't pay for itself even if it was possible on a container ship

[Paul]

In chemistry, plant materials are used as a precursor in things like pharmaceuticals, as those precursors can save reaction steps.

"Tamiflu

Its commercial production starts from the biomolecule shikimic acid harvested from Chinese star anise and from recombinant E. coli. "

And that involves fewer steps, than starting from some other (petroleum) precursor.

That's why as an undergrad, you're made to do a number of extractions (even doing an extraction of kidney stones), as part of training you that "you can skip a few steps by using available materials".

In some areas though, the sheer quantity of material required, makes a plant based solution impractical.

And these plant materials don't have to be food items. Sure, we can make Vodka from potato, competing with table consumption of cooked potato. But we don't absolutely have to do it that way. There is a company in-town, which uses biowaste for projects like that.

They make corn ethanol for petrol, but the kind of corn for that is not food grade corn. the cobs of corn used, would not make a good meal. But what it does mean, is there is more corn grown for fuel, than Peaches and Cream corn for human consumption. Even if they stopped today, with making corn ethanol, you could not immediately seed all the fields and make good-quality edible corn the next year. And who knows what state the "fuel fields" are in anyway, in terms of growing anything else.

Paul

[Paul]

You can see from the number of sails on that, they're getting serious. It's still sail-assist. I can think of where I was born, we could not unload that, because it would not make it under the two harbour bridges. Any container terminal, would need "unlimited" height to be handling items like that. When means it won't have quite as many ports it can use. Which is fine.

Paul

[Paul]

They're using computerized sails, so the sails deploy themselves automatically. And your assumptions are precisely why the sail designs are so muted. The sail area is kept small. The sail profile tends to stay within the footprint of the ship, rather than hanging out over the side of the vessel.

This is an artists render, and this design is not likely on the water yet.

Is a design like that compatible with bad weather ? Since container ships routinely lose containers, there's already a bit of a problem with loss. Other container ships are filled higher than that example.

Even with the sails furled, the cross-section of the sail support would still catch the wind.

Paul

[RJH]

Quite. It's one of a number - many far more practical - measures to reduce energy consumption:

Just slowing down a bit can yield huge savings. But it'll need regulating as the financial cost/benefit to shipping operators is relatively small.

[Rod Speed]

Its actually used for a hell of a lot more than just pharmaceuticals, most obviously with all of food, grog, fertiliser etc etc etc.

And when it is, that's because its cheaper to start that way.

That mangles the real story too.

Pity about the rest which has nothing to do with the number of steps.

Fantasy with all of food, grog, fertiliser etc etc etc.

Nope, just better to do from oil, and irrelevant to Andrew's pig ignorant claim that we can't do the plastics used in blood transfusion from other than oil

And that has always been the case with stuff like turpentine and even lubricataning and even lamp oils.

In fact all grog.

Nope, no competition involved.

Just as true of the plastics used in blood transfusion that Andrew mindlessly rabbitting on about.

In fact you can make ethanol from almost anything, given that it is such a simple chemical.

It isnt the only thing that can be grown there.

[Pancho]

I missed that step at university, but I have just learnt how to use a whetstone, so my kitchen knives are sharp. Anyone have some kidney stones they want extracting?

[Rod Speed]

And the other problem is that the masts still need stays to be viable.

[Rod Speed]

No its not given that there is no sail assist unless the wind is faster than the ship is already travelling and isnt feasible on a container ship anyway.

Just because some fool arts student journo in that shit rag claims something...

Bullshit it does given that no sail assist can actually deliver showing up a day early often enough matter and isnt viable on a container ship anyway.

Regulating can't change the physics or economics.