RIP Sir Patrick Moore

[Dave Plowman (News)]

Quite.

[Tim Lamb]

In message , "Dave Plowman (News)" writes

Of course not. Today's students are tomorrow's parents and some of this

*education* will get passed on. Just don't pretend it is a university or a degree.

Two or three student names would be added to my secondary school honours board each year. They were the ones who had achieved a scholarship to

*university*. This was an 11 plus selected grammar school so hardly representing 50% of the student population.

I went up a similar route to Harry; technical apprenticeship with an opportunity to reach degree equivalent status with block release courses and a years part 3 study for institute membership. In the event I struggled academically and settled for the HNC with lots of endorsements.

The polytechnic I attended is now a *university* but I doubt that more than 25% of the students are any cleverer than I was so what value do you put on their qualifications?

>

[The Natural Philosopher]

In many cases the joined them because without that they simply wouldn't get a job. You try performing and not being in Equity.

|Or being a graphic designer and not being a member of the print union.

Print shops simply wouldn't accept any artwork that dint have a unio9n stamp on it.

Closed shops and work-to-rule made industry ridiculously overmanned and inflexible. Jobs for the boys became no industry and no jobs at all.

[Bob Eager]

There needs to be a spectrum. Apprenticeships, further education and higher education (there is a difference!) all form part of that. The polys did a good job.

Now it's all been dragged down to a lower level, and just a very few elite universities/courses cater for the original 2%.

Opportunities are worse because of that, not better.

[whisky-dave]

It maybe now but it never used to be. We never used to take registers of whether or not the students turned up. Year ago if they didn't turn up they wouldn't learn anything so failed.

.

[whisky-dave]

Aren't they all.

it's a difficult call but more and more I see less cleverness but the number sof passes goes up or stays the same.

That is an even more difficult question because sometimes the degree says little about what the student knows. I'm pretty sure last year we had two studetns leaving with electronic engineering degrees and niether of those two knew copper conducted, they spent most of their degrees doing java programing and such things.

And as you get higher up in enducation things get less clear to the average person.

[Dave Plowman (News)]

Scholarship? Do you mean a grant awarded by an organisation, etc?

If you'd put up the names off all those who went to uni at my grammar school, it would have covered every wall...

[Dave Plowman (News)]

That certainly shows how out of date you are...

Of course when a 'profession' operates a closed shop it is in the public interest. But when a union does the same - to maintain a certain standard

- it is a BAD THING.

talk about double standards...

[polygonum]

Though some of the closed shop issues were put in place by, for example, shipbuilders, so they could lay off more expensive workers (boilermakers?) and take on cheap labour. Ends up that no-one has security of employment. And shipbuilders make more profit.

[Dave Plowman (News)]

So you don't think there is any need for unis to change with the times and or offer courses more suited to today's needs?

I'm certainly in favour of vocational training. Sadly, this required a commitment from employers not easy to justify to a board seeking to maximize profits at all costs. And of course not just in the private sector. The BBC used to do training across all spectrums of its operation. Not so now - even with the vast expansion of that area.

[The Natural Philosopher]

No its not a good thing. When professionals do it. All business - and being employed is being a business person as much as anything else, is about seeking to gain an unfair advantage. Insider trading, cartels and monopolies, closed shops, guilds and unions, rent seeking, flagrant corruption, copyright protection - you name it, its all there.

The business of government is to take an overall social view and see where it is in fact damaging the larger community.

In the case of union closed shops, maggie got a popular mandate to break it up. And she did. probably all she did that was any good, but that one needed doing.

WE also have a monopolies and mergers commission, things like OFGEM and so on to regulate de facto monopolies.

And watchdogs for professional monopolies like the NHS, education...

Its all there if you look for it.

The worst current excess - equal to the worst of Union power - is the use of legislation for spurious things like climate change, 'affordable housing' or health and safety to effectively bend the market in favour of certain companies products.

[The Natural Philosopher]

Closed shops are always ways to bend the market away from 'natural' supply and demand.

And are not restricted to just the workers.

[Dave Plowman (News)]

The problem with having an 'open house' is that anyone can then call themselves anything and attempt to practice that trade or profession. Or at least take the money for the attempt.

The union I belonged to had what many would have called a closed shop - although of course they never bother to actually find out what the varieties are.

What it did mean was anyone who held a ticket for that particular skill was at least competent in that position - it had to be approved by a committee of their peers and was also based on management reports.

Judging by what I see and hear on TV these days, at least some are doing this sort of job without having even the rudimentary skills.

As regards those who had a fundamental objection to joining a union, arrangements were they could pay the equivalent of the union subscription to a recognised charity instead. But I personally knew of no one who did.

In my experience it worked rather better than the 'CORGI' etc model of having an independant profit making company accrediting a skill.

[Dave Plowman (News)]

Like only giving jobs to friends etc of the management?

[Steve Firth]

No I simply look at actions and consequences. Where industry thrives today there is either no union involvement or pre-agreed restrictions on union activity.

No they didn't. They killed industries. Luddites always fail, if they won't work in new ways someone else will.

Still I leave you to utter bleeding-heart statements over the collapse of the buggy-whip industry.

[snip]

[stuart noble]

Or in the case of BMW, restrictions on management AND union activity, aka an agreement.

[Tim Lamb]

In message , "Dave Plowman (News)" writes

About 25% stayed on into the 6th. form and took A levels. I don't know how many of them got to uni. but at a guess, more than half.

What I am heading towards is that from my village school class of 30+ only 5 made it to grammar school. Of the grammar school intake of 100 or so, only 25 took A levels and only roughly half of those made it to university.

I don't think anyone has suggested that today's youngsters are more intelligent although they may have received better educational opportunities. How then do you explain the huge disparity in numbers other than through grade inflation?

>

[Dave Plowman (News)]

Now I know you only read the Mail.

[Dave Plowman (News)]

You make it sound like, in days of old, everyone capable of benefitting from further education got the chance to do so.

[Bob Eager]

I assume you actually mean higher education (degree level) rather than further education (level 4, HNC etc.)

I would agree that the 2% was too low. I'd have capped it at about 10%, I guess.