Replacing Florescent Lights in Garage

Currently we have 3 5ft florescent lights in our Garage (a double, side by side one). The light level is good. The garage is used for some diy work and a corner doubles as a utility area, besides (of course) being used for cars etc.
However, I'm tired of replacing the tubes- there 'always' seems to be one which needs to be replacing etc. (A bit of an overstatement but ....)
So, I'm considering LED replacements.
Just swapping the tubes (removing the starters and 'choke' is part of the process I believe) is an option, as is new fittings.
However, I'm concerned about achieving enough light.
The existing tubes are 58W which, seem to give 5500 or so lumens (based on an internet search).
To get a comparable output in lumens, it looks like I need 60W leds (going by a Screwfix ad).
Am I missing something? I was hoping for lower power.
(The lumen numbers for florescent tubes seem to vary, the 5500 number is one I found.)
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Brian Reay wrote on 04/06/2018 :

There is not a vaste saving to be had from switching from conventional tubes to LED. Better than ballasts and starters will be electronic ballasts, maybe with the 'soft start' option if they are switched often. Not lasting long, suggests it is being switched often. I have 9x 3', 6x 5' in my garage and workshop, they have never been replaced in around twenty years. They are switched separately so that I can choose which area needs light.
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I think it depends which colour temp lights you have, warm white, whit or many many others in the past some looking almost pink or in some cases cream. I even saw one shop with at least 5 different shades when i could see. I think one of the problems with leds is that you need to be able to spread the light a lot and hence more leds. Brian
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There must be something very wrong there. Decent quality tubes with decent control gear have an extremely long life. And even longer if you're willing to stand a drop in efficiency as they age.
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*A bartender is just a pharmacist with a limited inventory.

Dave Plowman snipped-for-privacy@davenoise.co.uk London SW
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On 04/06/2018 16:45, Dave Plowman (News) wrote:

I wonder if it is old T12 gear on a T8 lamp?
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On 04/06/2018 20:48, ARW wrote:

Ah, could be. I suspect the fittings are as old as the house (1986) and we've just had some lights in a bathroom removed (hidden by a suspended ceiling). The latter had larger diameter tubes- I assume T12. The garage tubes are all narrow- I assume T8.
I've never had reason to look inside the fittings. I will have an explore when I get a chance.
If I rewire the fittings, and remove the ballast etc. to use LED, all should be well, I assume.
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On 05/06/2018 18:02, Brian Reay wrote:

Yes.
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Adam

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On 04/06/18 15:07, Brian Reay wrote:

In a similar situation caused, I think, by voltage drop to the separate garage, I replaced the fluorescents with 250W Tungstens. They're used so little it makes no difference to the electricity bill and the whole lot cost me less than £10 including bulbs.
Another Dave
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On Mon, 4 Jun 2018 15:07:55 +0100, Brian Reay wrote:

The simplest is swap tubes, replace flory starter with LED "starter" (ie a bit of wire in a starter housing), job done. Also easy to revert to florry. Or you can remove/bypass the choke and power factor capacitor and just have mains L & N to one end of the tube holder. Put a florry into such a modifed fitting I suspect the filament in the end with full mains won't last long, both ends are normally in series across the mains...

I recently swapped out some 5' 58W florries for 20W LED 2000lm. I think I could just tell that the LED was lower light level when I swapped but in normal use I don't and there has been no comment about light levels from SWMBO'd.
Remember that your senses are log not lin, so half the power is only a 3 dB change which is generally accepted to be the smallest change you can detect.
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On 04/06/2018 20:16, Dave Liquorice wrote:

If you are removing the ballast and starter then it makes more sense to wire up the fitting as follows.
One pin at one end of the fitting to live, one pin at the other end of the fitting to neutral and a shorting wire between the other two pins.
This is because most LED replacement tubes are fed by a driver at one end of the tube and the other end of the LED tube is a shorted circuit.
Wiring this way as opposed to your suggestion of a LN at just one end prevents a short on the lighting circuit should the lamp be fitted the wrong way around and will allow the LED tube to work no matter which way round it is installed.
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On Mon, 4 Jun 2018 21:14:16 +0100, ARW wrote:

Or install an LED "starter" whilst still taking the choke and PF capacitor out of the circuit. In the fittings I have that's simply remove wires from choke, join in terminal block. Disconnect the wire to live on the capacitor and make safe.

Ah, yes engaging brain the other end has to be a short circuit for the swap tube and use LED "starter" method to work.

And if a conventional florry is fitted the filaments are in series as they should be... Won't strike but won't suffer unless left on with the ends glowing for a long time, FSVO "long".
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On Tuesday, 5 June 2018 00:44:16 UTC+1, Dave Liquorice wrote:

240v on 12v or so of filaments will kill them instantly.
NT
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On 05/06/2018 10:59, snipped-for-privacy@gmail.com wrote:

??????
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On 05/06/2018 00:44, Dave Liquorice wrote:

Hopefully long enough for the person that has fitted the florry to notice that something is wrong and do something about it not working:-)
I must fit 240V to one end of a florry to see how long it lasts.
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On Wednesday, 6 June 2018 19:35:11 UTC+1, ARW wrote:

ISTR running the filmaments of a 5 footer at either 6v or 12v, so they won't last a moment.
NT
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On 04/06/2018 21:14, ARW wrote:

Assuming, as you say, the LED tubes are 'shorted' at one end, that seems the ideal solution. Certainly not having to worry about fitting the tube the 'wrong way' (and shorting the supply) makes a lot of sense.
I'm assuming from what you say, the LED tubes are marked 'power this end' (or similar)? Likewise, 'proper' LED fittings are marked with 'power this end'.
We've just had an 'illuminated ceiling' removed (a suspended series of semi-clear tiles with lights above) as part of a bathroom 'revamp'. It had some florescent tubes mounted on the ceiling with the starter/ballast assembly just in boxes. I don't recall replacing any of the tubes in that since we moved in- over 20 years ago. I suspect the 'illuminated ceiling dates back to when the house was built- 1986.
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On Monday, 4 June 2018 15:07:59 UTC+1, Brian Reay wrote:

LEDs are being hyped, the reality is generally they're little or no more efficient than fluorescents. They will be some day.
Either you'e got a bad batch of tubes or some sort of fitting fault, though the latter are relatively rare. As ever you don't give us nearly enough detail to say more.
NT
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On Tue, 05 Jun 2018 03:02:10 -0700, tabbypurr wrote:

You can buy 125LPW LED GLS lamps in Asda and Home Bargains stores (8 quid a pair of 1522Lm bulbs in Asda or 3 quid for a single 1500Lm bulb in Home Bargain). The problem with LED tubes is you have to shop at specialist suppliers to get better than the 90LPW rating typical of T8 fluorescent tubes.
If you're looking for a more economic to run LED replacement, don't waste your money on Aldi and Lidl's offerings. Up to now, checking out the specifications of such tat has only made my lip curl in disgust at the results of my LPW calculations. One day, maybe such calculations won't be the lip curling exercise they've been over the past 3 or 4 years I've been checking out such 'offers' in Aldididdle.
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Johnny B Good

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On Tue, 05 Jun 2018 16:13:49 GMT, Johnny B Good wrote:

What type of "LED GLS"? filament or individual LEDs on a big lump of ali heat sink?

Simple lm/W isn't the whole picture. Aldi 5' LED tubes are 2000 lm and 22 W - 91 lm/W. Not so shabby. 2000 lm is numerically less than half that of 58W 5' florry but I find in practice that it's not noticeable so I'm getting the same percieved light level for less than half the watts. At least two are on for 18 hours a day, that's 1.3 kWHr/day not consumed or 473 kWHr/year @ 12p/kWHr = nearly £60 and I bought them when Aldi were floggin' em off at £4.99 each.
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On Tue, 05 Jun 2018 19:52:52 +0100, Dave Liquorice wrote:

The latter with around a 260 deg throw from a translucent envelope. The former filament type are also a bunch of individual LEDs strung along the filaments. Not being mounted onto a BFO heatsink limits them to 810 Lm using the 125LPW LEDs but it does have the charm of a wider 300 deg throw of light similar to a tungsten filament lamp.

The ones I was looking at were only 81LPW at best. It does depend on how you're intending to use them. If it's for a reflector type fitting intended to concentrate the illumination in mainly one direction, then they'll reduce the running costs for no reduction in useful illumination.
However, if it's for use in a ceiling fitting intended to take advantage of all the light output of a fluorescent tube to provide diffuse shadowless room illumination in, say a kitchen for example, then they're not such a good alternative.
A better way to emulate the diffuse illumination properties of a linear fluorescent tube with LEDs would be to use them in ceiling mounted lighting panels which can also neatly solve the cooling issue that arises when the LEDs have to packed pretty close together in a narrow "tube" or GLS lamp format.
Way back in March 2014, Cree announced a record breaking 303LPW laboratory achievement in LED lamp technology. Since the record of such milestone achievements indicates a typical lead time to marketable product of a decade, we just might see 250 to 280 LPW product going on sale, some time around 2024.
This is something to look forward to, not only for the sake of the relatively marginal savings on household electricity bills but mainly for the fact that we'll be able to fit LED GLS equivalents of 150 and 200 watt tungsten filament lamps into existing lamp sockets without risk of premature failure from overheating.
The recent introduction of a practical GLS LED substitute to the 100W incandescent was only made possible with the advent of the current generation of 125LPW LEDs. The older 81LPW LED lamps were limited to the (American standard) "60W 810Lm" GLS light bulb primarily on account of the waste heat dissipation temperature limitations of semiconductor based devices (external lamp surface temperature limited to little more than 80 deg C maximum versus the 200 or so deg C limit of tungsten filament lamps).
Unless you're in a real hurry to upgrade to "Instant On, Full Brightness" lighting, you'd be better off putting up with your electronically ballasted T8 tubes with their barely sufficient dosing of mercury which makes them emulate the mercury amalgam dosed CFL run up delay and the need for the fancy micro-processor controlled HF ballasts to preheat the tube cathodes for an unconscionable 900ms before allowing them to turn on[1], and wait a little longer for even better and cheaper LED GLS lamps or ceiling panels to materialise.
[1] Sadly, the price of reducing energy consumption of a 52W 4 foot Quickstart fitting with a T12 full fat mercury dosed fluorescent tube that could provide flicker free "instant on" (250 to 300ms) startup without sacrificing the 16,000 hour life to the brutality of a cheap 'n' nasty switch starter cursed fitting.
The 16W saving is some consolation but I'm going to miss the utter simplicity of the half century old Quickstart technology used in my last Quickstart fitting in the basement when my last functioning T12 Quickstart compatible[2] tube finally expires.
[2] There was a time when *all* T12 fluorescent tubes sold in the UK were Quickstart compatible until about 10 or 15 years ago when replacement tubes started to appear that wouldn't start up in such fittings, necessitating a return trip to the electrical factor to try a different brand of tube. Now we're stuck with crappy under-dosed T8 tubes with their minutes long run up times and the one second delay from switch on that modern electronic ballasts are forced to use to avoid premature tube failure. It's lucky that higher efficiency LED lamps are only just round the corner. Nice timing!
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Johnny B Good

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