Currently we have 3 5ft florescent lights in our Garage (a double, side
by side one). The light level is good. The garage is used for some diy
work and a corner doubles as a utility area, besides (of course) being
used for cars etc.
However, I'm tired of replacing the tubes- there 'always' seems to be
one which needs to be replacing etc. (A bit of an overstatement but ....)
So, I'm considering LED replacements.
Just swapping the tubes (removing the starters and 'choke' is part of
the process I believe) is an option, as is new fittings.
However, I'm concerned about achieving enough light.
The existing tubes are 58W which, seem to give 5500 or so lumens (based
on an internet search).
To get a comparable output in lumens, it looks like I need 60W leds
(going by a Screwfix ad).
Am I missing something? I was hoping for lower power.
(The lumen numbers for florescent tubes seem to vary, the 5500 number is
one I found.)
There is not a vaste saving to be had from switching from conventional
tubes to LED. Better than ballasts and starters will be electronic
ballasts, maybe with the 'soft start' option if they are switched
often. Not lasting long, suggests it is being switched often. I have 9x
3', 6x 5' in my garage and workshop, they have never been replaced in
around twenty years. They are switched separately so that I can choose
which area needs light.
I think it depends which colour temp lights you have, warm white, whit or
many many others in the past some looking almost pink or in some cases
I even saw one shop with at least 5 different shades when i could see. I
think one of the problems with leds is that you need to be able to spread
the light a lot and hence more leds.
This newsgroup posting comes to you directly from...
Ah, could be. I suspect the fittings are as old as the house (1986) and
we've just had some lights in a bathroom removed (hidden by a suspended
ceiling). The latter had larger diameter tubes- I assume T12. The garage
tubes are all narrow- I assume T8.
I've never had reason to look inside the fittings. I will have an
explore when I get a chance.
If I rewire the fittings, and remove the ballast etc. to use LED, all
should be well, I assume.
In a similar situation caused, I think, by voltage drop to the separate
garage, I replaced the fluorescents with 250W Tungstens. They're used so
little it makes no difference to the electricity bill and the whole lot
cost me less than £10 including bulbs.
On Mon, 4 Jun 2018 15:07:55 +0100, Brian Reay wrote:
The simplest is swap tubes, replace flory starter with LED "starter"
(ie a bit of wire in a starter housing), job done. Also easy to
revert to florry. Or you can remove/bypass the choke and power factor
capacitor and just have mains L & N to one end of the tube holder.
Put a florry into such a modifed fitting I suspect the filament in
the end with full mains won't last long, both ends are normally in
series across the mains...
I recently swapped out some 5' 58W florries for 20W LED 2000lm. I
think I could just tell that the LED was lower light level when I
swapped but in normal use I don't and there has been no comment about
light levels from SWMBO'd.
Remember that your senses are log not lin, so half the power is only
a 3 dB change which is generally accepted to be the smallest change
you can detect.
If you are removing the ballast and starter then it makes more sense to
wire up the fitting as follows.
One pin at one end of the fitting to live, one pin at the other end of
the fitting to neutral and a shorting wire between the other two pins.
This is because most LED replacement tubes are fed by a driver at one
end of the tube and the other end of the LED tube is a shorted circuit.
Wiring this way as opposed to your suggestion of a LN at just one end
prevents a short on the lighting circuit should the lamp be fitted the
wrong way around and will allow the LED tube to work no matter which way
round it is installed.
Or install an LED "starter" whilst still taking the choke and PF
capacitor out of the circuit. In the fittings I have that's simply
remove wires from choke, join in terminal block. Disconnect the wire
to live on the capacitor and make safe.
Ah, yes engaging brain the other end has to be a short circuit for
the swap tube and use LED "starter" method to work.
And if a conventional florry is fitted the filaments are in series as
they should be... Won't strike but won't suffer unless left on with
the ends glowing for a long time, FSVO "long".
Hopefully long enough for the person that has fitted the florry to
notice that something is wrong and do something about it not working:-)
I must fit 240V to one end of a florry to see how long it lasts.
Assuming, as you say, the LED tubes are 'shorted' at one end, that seems
the ideal solution. Certainly not having to worry about fitting the tube
the 'wrong way' (and shorting the supply) makes a lot of sense.
I'm assuming from what you say, the LED tubes are marked 'power this
end' (or similar)? Likewise, 'proper' LED fittings are marked with
'power this end'.
We've just had an 'illuminated ceiling' removed (a suspended series of
semi-clear tiles with lights above) as part of a bathroom 'revamp'. It
had some florescent tubes mounted on the ceiling with the
starter/ballast assembly just in boxes. I don't recall replacing any of
the tubes in that since we moved in- over 20 years ago. I suspect the
'illuminated ceiling dates back to when the house was built- 1986.
On Monday, 4 June 2018 15:07:59 UTC+1, Brian Reay wrote:
LEDs are being hyped, the reality is generally they're little or no more efficient than fluorescents. They will be some day.
Either you'e got a bad batch of tubes or some sort of fitting fault, though the latter are relatively rare. As ever you don't give us nearly enough detail to say more.
On Tue, 05 Jun 2018 03:02:10 -0700, tabbypurr wrote:
You can buy 125LPW LED GLS lamps in Asda and Home Bargains stores (8
quid a pair of 1522Lm bulbs in Asda or 3 quid for a single 1500Lm bulb in
Home Bargain). The problem with LED tubes is you have to shop at
specialist suppliers to get better than the 90LPW rating typical of T8
If you're looking for a more economic to run LED replacement, don't
waste your money on Aldi and Lidl's offerings. Up to now, checking out
the specifications of such tat has only made my lip curl in disgust at
the results of my LPW calculations. One day, maybe such calculations
won't be the lip curling exercise they've been over the past 3 or 4 years
I've been checking out such 'offers' in Aldididdle.
On Tue, 05 Jun 2018 16:13:49 GMT, Johnny B Good wrote:
What type of "LED GLS"? filament or individual LEDs on a big lump of
ali heat sink?
Simple lm/W isn't the whole picture. Aldi 5' LED tubes are 2000 lm
and 22 W - 91 lm/W. Not so shabby. 2000 lm is numerically less than
half that of 58W 5' florry but I find in practice that it's not
noticeable so I'm getting the same percieved light level for less
than half the watts. At least two are on for 18 hours a day, that's
1.3 kWHr/day not consumed or 473 kWHr/year @ 12p/kWHr = nearly £60
and I bought them when Aldi were floggin' em off at £4.99 each.
On Tue, 05 Jun 2018 19:52:52 +0100, Dave Liquorice wrote:
The latter with around a 260 deg throw from a translucent envelope. The
former filament type are also a bunch of individual LEDs strung along the
filaments. Not being mounted onto a BFO heatsink limits them to 810 Lm
using the 125LPW LEDs but it does have the charm of a wider 300 deg throw
of light similar to a tungsten filament lamp.
The ones I was looking at were only 81LPW at best. It does depend on how
you're intending to use them. If it's for a reflector type fitting
intended to concentrate the illumination in mainly one direction, then
they'll reduce the running costs for no reduction in useful illumination.
However, if it's for use in a ceiling fitting intended to take advantage
of all the light output of a fluorescent tube to provide diffuse
shadowless room illumination in, say a kitchen for example, then they're
not such a good alternative.
A better way to emulate the diffuse illumination properties of a linear
fluorescent tube with LEDs would be to use them in ceiling mounted
lighting panels which can also neatly solve the cooling issue that arises
when the LEDs have to packed pretty close together in a narrow "tube" or
GLS lamp format.
Way back in March 2014, Cree announced a record breaking 303LPW
laboratory achievement in LED lamp technology. Since the record of such
milestone achievements indicates a typical lead time to marketable
product of a decade, we just might see 250 to 280 LPW product going on
sale, some time around 2024.
This is something to look forward to, not only for the sake of the
relatively marginal savings on household electricity bills but mainly for
the fact that we'll be able to fit LED GLS equivalents of 150 and 200
watt tungsten filament lamps into existing lamp sockets without risk of
premature failure from overheating.
The recent introduction of a practical GLS LED substitute to the 100W
incandescent was only made possible with the advent of the current
generation of 125LPW LEDs. The older 81LPW LED lamps were limited to the
(American standard) "60W 810Lm" GLS light bulb primarily on account of
the waste heat dissipation temperature limitations of semiconductor based
devices (external lamp surface temperature limited to little more than 80
deg C maximum versus the 200 or so deg C limit of tungsten filament
Unless you're in a real hurry to upgrade to "Instant On, Full
Brightness" lighting, you'd be better off putting up with your
electronically ballasted T8 tubes with their barely sufficient dosing of
mercury which makes them emulate the mercury amalgam dosed CFL run up
delay and the need for the fancy micro-processor controlled HF ballasts
to preheat the tube cathodes for an unconscionable 900ms before allowing
them to turn on, and wait a little longer for even better and cheaper
LED GLS lamps or ceiling panels to materialise.
 Sadly, the price of reducing energy consumption of a 52W 4 foot
Quickstart fitting with a T12 full fat mercury dosed fluorescent tube
that could provide flicker free "instant on" (250 to 300ms) startup
without sacrificing the 16,000 hour life to the brutality of a cheap 'n'
nasty switch starter cursed fitting.
The 16W saving is some consolation but I'm going to miss the utter
simplicity of the half century old Quickstart technology used in my last
Quickstart fitting in the basement when my last functioning T12 Quickstart
compatible tube finally expires.
 There was a time when *all* T12 fluorescent tubes sold in the UK were
Quickstart compatible until about 10 or 15 years ago when replacement
tubes started to appear that wouldn't start up in such fittings,
necessitating a return trip to the electrical factor to try a different
brand of tube. Now we're stuck with crappy under-dosed T8 tubes with
their minutes long run up times and the one second delay from switch on
that modern electronic ballasts are forced to use to avoid premature tube
failure. It's lucky that higher efficiency LED lamps are only just round
the corner. Nice timing!
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