Re: Vegans (was Re: OT: Covid Jab)

[T i m]

Yup, most people don't 'want to' and wouldn't / couldn't if expected to.

Becoming a Buddhist or the not killing animals (OOI)?

There are more reasons *today* then there ever were.

But if you were looking for a logical justification to support humans eating meat (in 2020), that would / should be one of them?

So, accepting we don't have the right to make animals suffer (exploitation) and die, when we don't need to (and that is supported by the thousands of nutritionists that make up the British Dietetic Association and the American Dietetic Association).

Accepting that we won't be able to continue to waste resources re livestock in the future.

Accepting that the levels of damage caused by live-stock 'farming' (waste runoff, GH gasses, habitation destruction, human health).

Accepting the zoonotic links to many of the pandemics that have killed millions (animals ... inc humans) over the years, with many more predicted.

Man have evolved to a point where we don't need to make animals suffer and die for the sake of a few minutes of our taste pleasure.

We know that what is considered *acceptable* re our treatment of animals (human and other) over the years has been refined and 'powerful bodies' that have had a vested interest in the exploitation of animals (slavery, meat, dairy) can be stopped easily by us. Not something we have the power to do with many other topics, certainly without mass activism and public protest.

And it's happening ... milk production down (because of reduced demand) ~50% here and the USA (to name but two), recommendations from all the health bodies to cut down on meat consumption.

The market is reacting to that with a massive increase in vegan products (inc products not tested on animals, don't use fur / leather and use non animal-based alternatives in food production) and the suggestion that 1 in 5 Xmyth meals will be vegan this year.

I fully understand why someone might not think / consider a different mindset, especially if they are older / isolated / indoctrinated, but once you know, there really is no justification to continue doing something that we did in less enlightened times.

There is no right way to do a wrong thing.

Cheers, T i m

p.s. Looking forward to all the Xmyth food daughter has sorted out for us. ;-)

[T i m]

Thinking further on your post Andy, why did you title it 'vegans' when surely your reply is purely about veganism?

Why didn't you tile it 'No cruelty to animals', as that's what vegans strive to achieve and hence what veganism is about.

An observation referencing Buddhism risks conflating a religion, 'Buddhism ...

"As expressed in the Buddha's Four Noble Truths, the goal of Buddhism is to overcome suffering (du?kha) caused by desire, attachment to a static self, and ignorance of the true nature of reality (avidya)."

The suffering of a mother cow as it's newborn is taken away from it (repeated yearly), because of some peoples desire to consume the mothers milk, meant for her own offspring? The true nature of reality ...

... with an ethical / practical / moral lifestyle choice that avoids wherever possible any cruelty or exploitation of animals, (without the need of any faith or belief)?

I mention this because it's obvious that the likes of Turnip believe they are both 'religions' and require 'faith'? Veganism is based entirely on the *fact* that no animal wants to die and the *fact* that we no longer need to kill or exploit them to survive.

Cheers, T i m

[Spike]

Straw Man argument.

Does that over-ride the overwhelming scientific evidence that vegans run health risks due to their diet? Links have been posted previously to this evidence.

Or perhaps you live in a Post-Truth Marxist world where what you think is true, and mere reality is irrelevant.

[Spike]

But veganism blithely ignores the *fact* that vegans suffer from what is essentially malnutrition. Links have been posted previously - you probably ignored them.

[gareth evans]

As to claimed facts about the wishes of animals, is there any scientific evidence that is based upon the evalution of animals' wishes?

If so, were the animals which were tested able to express their thoughts?

[T i m]

<snip>

More growing every day. Poke a cat / dog / horse / pig / cow / lion with a knife and see how they respond.

See above. Only a fool wouldn't accept (see) that most animals exhibit many of the same emotions as we do and suffer pain (mental and physical) in the exact same ay as we do.

Cheers, T i m

[Jim GM4DHJ ...]

[T i m]

If only that were the case in the real world ...

Cheers, T i m

[gareth evans]

No evidence, then, of the mental state of animals regarding death?

[T i m]

WTF are you talking about?

Are you asking if animals are conscious of their own future mortality?

Animal can sense when they or another is ill and they can and do prepare to die.

Or are they conscious of their immediate risk / mortality and do everything they can to survive?

It's only the latter the matters in any case as you could use the exact same criteria with a mentally disabled person or child.

Cheers, T i m

[gareth evans]

You asserted opinion as fact; a matter to which I challenged.

[T i m]

<snip>

It was only 'my opinion' to you as you didn't already know it to be fact.

Ignorance is bliss?

Have you never looked after an animal, had a pet in your family (or one you bothered with or got close to)?

Cheers, T i m

[Fredxx]

You have been unable to counter any facts I present you.

Quite if you have your head planted in the sand.