Potholes.

In message <10r3le9$32frr$ snipped-for-privacy@dont-email.me, at 20:20:41 on Tue, 7 Apr

Depends what you mean by democracy. You can't have a town-hall meeting where 450 million people are invited. So representative democracy is the closest approximation - only 720 people.

A system in which neither the head of EU Commission nor the nor the members of the European Commission are directly elected to those posts by a plebiscite, has doubtful claim to be either representative or democratic.

Well of course, but who are the the people the EU 'democracy' represents? IIRC its the heads of state of the EU nations, so just 27 people ...

In message snipped-for-privacy@mid.individual.net>, at 14:09:49 on Wed, 8 Apr

They are voted in by the 720 representatives which the public entrusted with the task.

Having the members of the commission elected by a plebiscite of 450 million people, 449 million of which have absolutely no idea of the credentials of the people on the ballot paper, is never going to end well.

In message <10r5nqn$3krnf$ snipped-for-privacy@dont-email.me, at 15:13:43 on Wed, 8 Apr

But each nation can choose their representative, one of the 27 people, so it's still a democracy.

In that reply I think you have condemned the democratic system of the EU, such as it is, twice over.

I don't see anything in principle wrong with electing an assembly who in turn elect a president and/or small committees to actually get things done. A group of 700 (or 600 in the UK) 'ish elected representatives is too large to actually get things done, there is thus a need to delegate to smaller groups (or individuals).

In message snipped-for-privacy@mid.individual.net>, at 15:57:43 on Wed, 8 Apr

No, you've demonstrated your ignorance of what "democracy" means, twice over.

No, the public voted for nobody. The public votes for a party. the actual person the party then "entrusts with the task" is completely outside the control or selection of the public. And EU Commissioners are appointed by the current government of their member state. Theoretically the Parliament can object, but it certainly isn't the Parliament which chooses them. Nobody representing the interests of ordinary people would have chosen the crook Mandelson.

That's simply an argument that 450 million people cannot reasonably be governed by one central authority. Government of that number of people centrally can never be by consent.

That's why there are federations, of which the EU pretends to be one, until a member 'state' looks like electing someone it disapproves of. Then it believes it has the right to interfere, and we see it's just an oligarchy.

As I've pointed out elsewhere, it is *not* the nation which chooses the Commissioners. It is the bunch of brigands making up the current government which does that. Democracy is *not* transferable. If the people of a constituency elect an MP, they have not democratically elected the cleaner he decides to employ in his office.

MPs, MEPs and the like are not representatives, they are delegates. They *represent* their owners, whoever they may be, who are not the electorate. For UK MPs, the owners are mostly their political parties, who paid for their election, and who insist they represent their party by the use of whips. After the polls close, the electorate has no further say or representation anywhere.

It’s interesting to note that those who espouse the virtues of the EU political system seem to know little about it. Perhaps they should employ their own philosophy, and refrain from voting.

Neither does the party if the MP chooses to defect! The whole system is a POS specifically designed to disenfranchise the electorate from being involved in /any/ decision, no matter how big or small, for up to five years once that "X" has been put on the voting paper.

Dont make me laugh

My 'German' sister and her hubby are the staunchest Europhiles ever, but even she admitted 'we (Germans) didn't vote for Von der Leyen and we don't want her,' The EU political process is completely captured by a small elite of bureaucrats and ex political grifters all of whom receive a lot of money , are unsackable, and who are all dedicated to building a United Soviet State of Europe

It is there to *enforce* decisions on nations that they would never take voluntarily. Lie the Euro. And open borders. to anyone who manages to set foot in an EU country

But at least you don't (yet) get physically cancelled for saying that.

We have *some* tools,

We sacked May, The City sacked Truss, The tory elite sacked Boris and the people sacked Sunak.

And will in due course sack Strarmer.

I rather think it is you that have absorbed the EU definition of democracy and taken it to heart

I remember a UKIP public meeting where some school teenagers had been sent to 'find out about fascism'. When queried as to why we shouldn't leave the EU, one said 'because if we do we won't be able to buy stuff.'

This seems to be the intellectual level of knowledge of most Europhiles.

How many Prime Ministers have we had in the UK who were never chosen by the electorate - but were selected by some arcane party process?

We have to leave the UK! It's undemocratic!

Of course. What government, of any political colour, is really willing to hand over any of its bullying power to the peasants?