OT:Poisons ...

[Jethro_uk]

just watched an episode of Breaking Bad, where a character manages to assassinate the entire management of a cartel by taking an emetic, and then presenting them with a bottle of "Zafiro Anejo", which he drinks with them (to allay their suspicions of poisoning).

Of course it *is* poisoned, and while the poisoner survives (as he throws up before the poisons is fully active) all the other victims die within a minute of each other. The symptoms appear to be neurological ... dizziness, confusion, collapse, and (presumably) death.

So, assuming the plaudits about the science of the show being in the main believable (hydrofluoric acid and mecury fulminate "Mythbusters" busting notwithstanding), then it's an interesting academic exercise to speculate on something which could do this job.

Quite tight criteria ...

1) colourless (or pale blue) 2) odourless 3) tasteless 4) soluble in water and alcohol 5) predictable and fatal effects 6) acts within 10 minutes

[Tim Lamb]

In message , Jethro_uk writes

Umm.. Agricultural insecticide? Organophosphates.

>

[Jethro_uk]

Would they work in 10 minutes ?

In the programme, the drink was poured into identical shot glasses, so presumably the dosage was consistent. Of course that's another criteria. Whatever it was needed to be potent enough to kill 9 men, whilst being diluted into a 70cl/100cl bottle of spirits.

[Tim Lamb]

Unlikely. You need TNP but he is busy elsewhere:-)

A number of pesticides/herbicides have been withdrawn simply because they became popular with those wishing to commit suicide.

[Brian Gaff]

Arguably if you want to do this, let me say right now that it is not a good idea for folk to suggest anything as they could be arrested for supplying the info for you to commit the crime etc. Of course I am sure you are talking hypothetically here.

Brian

[Mark]

Already posted but not sure if it has propogated:

First that springs to mind would be Sarin - colourless, odourless liquid, v ery lethal and fast acting.

Cyanide would work for approx 75% of the population as there is a genetic d ifference between those who can detect and those who can't.

Generally the trick of using an emetic as an antidote is probably a non-sta rter - in fact I would suggest that it is this part where the script falls down most readily - as any toxin that will work fast enough will be being a bsorbed through the mucous membranes before even reaching the stomach and a n emetic will take some time to work during which you'll already be being p oisoned.

Ricin would work well and the emetic would act as a safety but as symptoms take hours to manifest it would not comply with the 10 minute requirement.

Cheers

Mark (BSc Toxicology & Pharmacology)

[Jethro_uk]

Ah, the nerve agent. Tokyo metro attack IIRC

Always wondered about this. Apparently up until the 1950s, some US counties pathologists would sniff stomach contents as a toxicology screen ...

I have a theory that the people who can detect cyanide are (like me) people who detest (unless there is a stronger word) almond essence (e.g. marzipan).

As I said, the science on the show has been shown to be a bit shakey anyway.

The show has twice made reference to ricin. However it has also implicitly ruled it out, as the characters discuss it's use, and it's clear it's not a fast-acting poison. One of the mistakes the KGB made when using it in 1978 - the victim had time to alert the police who then carried out a very thorough autopsy which confirmed murder.

[Mark]

My wife can detect cyanide (she used to work with it) but does like marzipan and almonds - only a sample set of one but it is a start...

[Jethro_uk]

Of course, I have no idea if I can smell cyanide. I can smell almond essence.

Vague memories of being told in A level chemistry that there are 3 things that smell like cyanide. 2 harmless, and one ... well cyanide. So if you smelt almonds, run.

[Nightjar]

On 28/04/2014 16:51, Jethro_uk wrote: ...

I do. There was always a faint whiff around the plating shop in my father's factory's plating shop. They bought the stuff by the carboy.

...

We were just told not to pour cyanide or its compounds down the sink.

Colin Bignell

[Huge]

It takes days to die from paraquat poisoning.

[Huge]

I have done a prep at college that used potassium cyanide. I didn't sniff it.

[Chris J Dixon]

I remember the class doing preparation of chlorine, all done in the general lab, not fume cupboards, no safety glasses or even lab coats. At the end, everybody poured their excess materials down the drain, and lo! (since there was between us plenty of reagent left) the reactions started up again in the sink, strongly enough for somebody to get a lungfull and have to visit casualty.

Chris

[jrwalliker]

I like almonds and marzipan and I can smell hydrogen cyanide. This was also from an electro-plating bath for gold plating. A mixture of gold and potassium cyanide solutions which evolves small amounts of HCN when the bath is in use.

John

[harryagain]

Who are you planning to kill?

[harryagain]

Ricin?

>

[harryagain]

Already posted but not sure if it has propogated:

First that springs to mind would be Sarin - colourless, odourless liquid, very lethal and fast acting.

Cyanide would work for approx 75% of the population as there is a genetic difference between those who can detect and those who can't.

Generally the trick of using an emetic as an antidote is probably a non-starter - in fact I would suggest that it is this part where the script falls down most readily - as any toxin that will work fast enough will be being absorbed through the mucous membranes before even reaching the stomach and an emetic will take some time to work during which you'll already be being poisoned.

Ricin would work well and the emetic would act as a safety but as symptoms take hours to manifest it would not comply with the 10 minute requirement.

Cheers

Mark (BSc Toxicology & Pharmacology)

Assassinated with ricin

[The Natural Philosopher]

I can smell both. No fond of but don't dislike marzipan.

[Mark]

However as the requirement is to kill with 10 minutes ricin won't comply - as per the link you provided:

"That evening he developed a fever and was admitted to a hospital where he died three days later"

Not exactly within 10 minutes is it?

[Gordon Henderson]

Iocane powder FTW ...

A highly toxic substance with origins in Australia. Immunity from the deadly properties of iocane can be built up over a period of time if it is introduced in minute portions.

Gordon