(OT) Latest from Watt Logic on gas supplies and energy prices

[newshound]

Makes sense to me from a quick skim

[Andy Burns]

To pick up on a non-energy aspect from there ...

"CO2, which is widely used in food supply chains, from powering the stun guns used in animal slaughter"

Really? I thought as far as animal slaughter is concerned, it is used to "drown" the animals in pits of CO2? If any stun do guns happen to run on CO2, surely it would be trivial to convert them to compressed air?

[GB]

Really, use CO2? That's very, very painful. Upping the N2 concentration would be painless, so why don't they use that?

It's lighter than air, so that's an issue, but not insuperable.

[The Nomad]

Well, a lot of it is to do with what the regulations allow(ed). Pigs it used to be ONLY CO2, so the systems were designed for a heavier than air gas - N2 won't stay in the systems - not easy to modify/change & very expensive especially if you have to stop processing whilst your kit is modified - weeks likely, look at the problems caused on the farms by the shortage of butchers.

Poultry, here the gas systems were introduced later and so other gas mixtures are permitted (they are for pigs actually but ... see above) the first systems used Argon, with or without CO2. Now mostly either multi- phase CO2 or N2 & CO2. The benefit of the CO2 is it is an analgesic/ anaesthetic gas due to the acidification of the CSF. Lower levels are not especially aversive but do cause loss of consciousness ... the issue with pure anoxic mixtures is the anoxic convulsions produced as the brain dies, the bird 'should' be unconscious by then but the CO2 reduces/ prevent the issue so it is used.

HTH BIBID

Avpx (who does know as it is part of the 'day job')

[Tim+]

Whilst we can never know for sure what animals feel, based on my experiences of taking a lungful of CO2 from the top of a brewery vat, breathing CO2 is exceedingly unpleasant.

Tim

[newshound]

IME (and I do have significant experience) the "brewery vat" experience is in good part associated with the pungent aromas of malt and hops. In the days when I did proper industrial fire training using real extinguishers, we were allowed to sample CO2 in sufficient concentrations to get the "soda water" taste in the mouth, and told that this was the point at which you should get out quickly. Once you accept that you are going to slaughter animals for consumption, I'm inclined to believe that both vets and slaughtermen are going to seek out the "least worst" methods. Whilst (for example) the captive bolt gun might be the quickest in "final completion", you also have to factor in the stages leading up to it. And that makes me inclined to support modern methods which of course vary from animal to animal but typically involve anaesthatisation or stunning first.

[Mike Halmarack]

Whatever happened to that most benign, delicate and skillfully wielded tool, the pole axe?

[Tim+]

Um no. I?ve also inhaled CO2 from a cylinder and the experience is even more unpleasant.

Well yes. Just a shame that ?least worst? and ?most humane? aren?t the same. The former is clearly shorthand for ?least worst that is affordable?.

I guess that depends how well the animals are treated up to that point. As long as they?re not distressed or panicking I think a captive bolt would be way more humane than CO2. Of course, managing some animals in a slaughterhouse environment to minimise stress might not be easy.

Whilst the logistics/economics may be difficult, I?m sure that stunning/euthanising by N2 would be way more humane for many animals.

Tim

[newshound]

I think you will find that those in the business have actually done some real research.

Some random google numbers make nitrogen in cylinders about 3 dollars per 100 cubic feet, while carbon dioxide cylinders might be about 20 dollars per 100 cubic feet.

Liquid LN is significantly cheaper than the price above.

[Tim+]

As the Nomad has pointed out, the physical properties of N2 make it more difficult to use in the same way as CO2 so the cost of the gas isn?t the only consideration.

Come back to me when you?ve tried a lungful of CO2 and let me know if you still think it?s humane. ;-)

Tim

[Tim+]

Wouldn?t argue with that!

Tim

[John Rumm]

I have spoken to a couple of excise officers who had suffered the "leant too far over the vat", followed by a "lights out" experience - neither reported it being unpleasant - aside from the embarrassment anyway.

Perhaps there is a variation in experience / tolerance? (much like some flavours are benign to many, but deeply offensive to some "super tasters" with the right genetic disposition)

[Tim+]

I?m more inclined to side with my personal experience.

See also

?Stunning pigs with carbon dioxide gas is one of the most common methods for commercial slaughter. Carbon dioxide, however, has been shown to be aversive for pigs and causes a high degree of distress before they lose consciousness. ?

Pretty much what you?d expect as most mammals respiratory drive comes from rising CO2, not falling O2. High concentrations cause frantic gasping which I can vouch is most unpleasant.

Tim

[Tim Streater]

The scent of hyacinths makes me unwell.