OT: Caravans

[SH]

I was taught that "An" is only used before words starting with a vowel, and it's a for all other words starting with a consonant.

[Harry Bloomfield Esq]

The only time I hired one too. My outfit was parked outside a supermarket, collecting supplies before setting off to Cornwall and a lorry ran into it writing it off. It was towable, though not usable. The trip continued, hoping to find somewhere to hire one onroute and I found a place in Cornwall renting tourers out. It was comparable to the one I'd had written off at home.

You are not supposed to turn them over :-)

[Harry Bloomfield Esq]

What if you drop your H's?

[Jim Stewart ...]

totly

[NY]

Fine. "An 'otel" or "a hotel" (*) - either is logical. But not "an hotel", which is about as logical as "an dog" or "an woman". I've never understood why there is an exception for "h" words to the normal rule of "before a consonant or consonant sound, you use 'a'; before a vowel or vowel sound, you use 'an'" - so a hotel, a hedge, a historic occasion, a uniform [pronounced as yuniform, so consonant *sound*]; an image, an orange, an honour [h is silent so it's a vowel *sound*].

I wonder if the use of "an hotel" and "an historic occasion" will gradually die out as the people who were taught that rule die and younger people are taught the simpler rule without the special-case-H exemption.

(*) There is a case for pronouncing the word the French way, even it sounds a tad pretentious nowadays.

[Rod Speed]

Nope, only wankers call it Paree.

Hell of a lot more than a tad.

[NY]

I've always wondered why some countries invented a new *version* of a foreign country's city name, as opposed to a local pronunciation (using local conventions) of the *same* foreign name.

Compare

Paris: Paree versus Parriss [same name, just different pronunciation]

but

Munchen/Munich, London/Londres, Firenze/Florence, Livorno/Leghorn

And then you get corruptions, mis-hearings and downright mondegreens like Ypres which the WWI "Tommies" called Wipers - well, at least they "tried" ;-)

True!

Then you get onto country names. Some countries have the same name (or else just one "foreign" name used outside the country) - Finland/Suomi - but some seem to have many different names outside the home country. Germany is a good example of the latter: Deutschland [Germany], Germany [UK], Allemagne [France] or Allemania [Spain], Niemcy [Poland], Tedescu [Italy], Tyskland [Denmark/Norway/Sweden].

[Tim+]

Almost right. A vowel *sound*. When did you last say “a hour” as opposed to “an hour”?

Tim

[Rod Speed]

NY [e-mail] wrote

And you also get weird pronunciations of some town names by the locals too.

I've always maintained that that is done deliberatly so they can trivially work out who the foreigners/tourists etc are.

Yeah, must be known how that came about.

Bet Colin knows.

[Colin Bignell]

Presumably cheaper than buying one, if what you want to do is find out whether a caravan suit you.

[Rod Speed]

Rod Speed [e-mail] wrote

Very decent explanation here

[Colin Bignell]

It does, but American influence has lead to it being pronounced over here as well. Either is considered acceptable these days.

which is why “an hotel” sounds

To my ear, a hotel sounds cumbersome and wrong. It is not something I would ever say.

It shouldn't be used before a pronounced H, so if you pronounce hotel exactly as it is written, you would use the article a. If you pronounce hotel the way I was taught, which is 'otel', with a very soft aspiration before the O, the article is an.

[Colin Bignell]

English is full of exceptions to the rules. It is a particularly rich and complex language with influences from around the world, as well as some historical anomalies. For example, in Old English, many words that today start wh started hw. Mediaeval scribes decided to reverse the order as it looked better on the page.

aka dumbing down education.

[Colin Bignell]

For me, Gay Paris and gay Paree conjure up two entirely different images of the city.

[Colin Bignell]

On 12/08/2022 23:06, Rod Speed wrote: ...

That is very interesting Rod. Thank you for adding to my fount of rarely useful, but to me interesting, information.

[Tim+]

I can honestly say that I have *never* heard hotel pronounced ‘otel’ in the UK.

Tim

[Tim+]

Not dumbing down at all. Just the correction of mistakes made by pig-headed English teachers of yesteryear.

Tim

[Colin Bignell]

Having rules for the language is not a mistake. The mistake is simplifying it for everybody because some can't be bothered to learn the rules. The language will become poorer if that happens.

[Colin Bignell]

At least, you are not conscious of having done so. The two sounds are sufficiently similar that, unless somebody says an 'otel, you probably wouldn't be aware that the h was mute. We all hear what we expect to hear, which is not necessarily what has been said.

Of course, these days, I very much doubt that pronunciation is taught in schools. Expecting children to conform to rules stifles their freedom of expression, or whatever the current educational theory is. Also, it is no longer thought desirable for everybody to speak Standard Southern English.

[Rod Speed]

That is very arguable indeed with that particular rule.