New drivers

[charles]

since you ask - 1968 on my Anglia.

[David WE Roberts]

Having trawled once through the thread I think I am old school in using gears to slow down as well as brakes. Although I do occasionally pass a sign which says "engage low gear now" which suggests that brakes are not the only option. I have also completely faded out a set of brakes when coming down a twisty hill quite fast in NZ in a Toyota Camry Auto which was quite interesting - engaging low gear helped my to recover from this.

However there are two different scenarios.

If you are pootling in traffic in an automatic then modern brakes are more than adequate. However it is kinder to your enigine and automatic gearbox and the environment to engage neutral when stopped at the lights, and kinder to those following to apply the handbrake. [In gear at the lights with the foot brake on - the engine is trying to push the car forward and you are using the foot brake to stop it. It does make the engine work harder than just idling in neutral.] Pootling these days is probably anything up to 50mph because cars are so much more capable these days and don't need any special driving skills to go round sharp corners and stop quickly up to this speed under normal conditions. If you are pootling in a manual then it is kinder to your engine to engage a low gear so that you can drive very slowly and retain fine control of your speed.

If you are driving a manual car accross twisty lanes and trying to take the corners as fast and efficiently as is safe then you would normally change down and brake as you approached the corner so that you could accelerate through it. Slow in, fast out. Much smoother than slowing down in top gear, then changing as you approach the apex of the corner which gives you a total lack of drive at a crucial moment. Oh, and does anyone these days know how to heel and toe? Useful if you are braking and changing gear at the same time in a manual unless you can precisely match engine revs to drive train when like the rally drivers of yore you just use the accelerator (right foot) and brake (left foot).

Oh, and check with any racing driver up to and including F1 champions. You probably won't hear "Nah, mate, I just use the brakes. Cheaper to replace than the gearbox." Watch them approach a corner as they use the gears and the brakes to slow the car down and put them in the correct gear to power through the corner.

So traditional driving methods are not always necessary these days because the capabilities of modern cars are so good compared to average road speed. However use of the handbrake is polite and environmentally friendly when stopped at lights. It isn't the end of the world if it takes you another second to set off when the lights change. [Although I was taught to watch the sequence of the lights at the junction so I could anticipate when they were about to change and so engage gear and prepare to release the handbrake. Then again I learned to drive in Essex where a quick burn away from the lights was part of the driving test.]

Finally, with high tech dual circuit brakes, brake failure is not very common. However it is sensible to teach drivers how to slow a car using just the gears even if they aren't obliged to do this every day. It also helps to slow a larger vehicle down smoothly - I still use the gears as part of the slowing down process whn driving my motor home.

Cheers

Dave R

[dennis]

Disks will glow red if you use your brakes a lot. They still appear to work when glowing red, so too hot will probably result in warped disks rather than fading.

Of course there are some pretty cr@p pads out there (fakes, etc.) that will fade, decent ones are a lot better.

[dennis]

Modern cars have ABS to stop you locking the wheels. Not that you want ABS on when driving on snow as you want to lock the wheels if you have to brake. Talking of snow quick fit have 25% off winter tyres ATM.

[David WE Roberts]

In my current auto car there is enough power at tickover to propell the car to over 30mph if you just take your foot off the brake. Makes driving slowly and stopping in snow almost impossible with the car in gear. I have learned to engage neutral then apply the brakes at anything less than about 10mph. However I can come to a gentle halt in gear using the brakes under normal conditions.

Cheers

Dave R

[dennis]

An advanced driver would take that into account.

[dennis]

You won't find any high performance driver using the engine to brake, I suppose they need to learn to drive too.

It would have to be very precise not to have additional wear on the drive train. Even a small difference in road speed to engine speed will wear the plates and the synchromesh with each additional gear change. I suggest you learn how stuff works.

Fully pressed does wear the plates as there is no such thing as a completely disengaged clutch, the friction between the plates may not be enough to move the car but it will wear, slowly.

[charles]

[Snip]

ah well, I've so far got 103,000 miles out my current clutch and over

110,000 on a previous car and I use the gears box as well as brakes for slowing down, particularly before a corner.

[David WE Roberts]

ABS requires a level of rediual grip for the system to detect that the wheels are starting to slip or are locked up but still gripping the surface. If lock up your wheels in snow and ice then ABS is about as much use as a proverbial. It assumes that you have stopped as there is no feedback from the wheels to suggest anything else. I must disagree with your wish to lock wheels up in the snow - this just sets you off down the road like a sledge, especially down hill with a steep camber.

I have had a few scary moments with powerful automatics and ABS. In gear, the tickover pushes you forward at a considerable speed and if you brake then everything locks up and you slide. The only way out I have found is to put the auto box into neutral and then use the brakes. In a manual car you have much more control as you can dip and slip the clutch to adjust the amount of engine braking at the wheels.

Cheers

Dave R

[dennis]

It saves fuel too, modern engines don't use any in overrun.

That's because they aren't very good at driving and can't select the correct gear quickly if circumstances change so they need to select the gears as they go.

[dennis]

the brake pedal is a switch for those rear lights, no need to press it hard enough to activate the servo most of the time.

Having said that I had to stand on the pedal last night when some halfwit pulled out across me. I nearly had the rear end remodelled as the bloke behind ended up halfway alongside me. Bloody women drivers.

[John Williamson]

It seems now to be more of an indication that the driver signalling wishes to be blocked from carrying out the manoeuvre. That's what happens when I signal in Britain, at any rate.

[Davey]

Agreed, and in a manual.

An American transmission engineer (and they have been making them over there in their millions) once said that the thing that was most unkind to an automatic transmission was to put it into neutral when stopped, as it meant that the bands had to go through a cycle of catching up with their pulleys each time, causing the jerk, whereas if the box was just left in Drive, this was not the case, and that wear did not happen.

Agreed.

Agreed, but I would say brake and then change down to the correct gear for the speed.

That is how I learned to drive, of necessity. Students' =C2=A350 cars were not known for their synchromesh. When I learned to drive an automatic, I learned to use both feet. That is why the brake pedal is larger than in a manual. It gives much better control in a car park.

Hmm. They brake, and they have to change gear, as the boxes are sequential, so they can't skip from one to another two gears away, they have to match the gear to their speed at all times. Racing car brakes are of a magnitude of power that road-going users will never experience.

I always do, whether in an automatic or a manual. It saves having to keep one foot pressed on the brake. At least most European cars have handbrakes, as opposed to the ghastly emergency brakes that US cars have.=20

Agreed on all points.

Yes, and it is essential in descending a hill. As mentioned elsewhere, that is what produces brake fade, at the worst possible moment, and more than one brake circuit will not help if the actual friction isn't there anymore.

I've only driven the occasional Renta-Lorry, so can't comment.

--=20 Davey.

[charles]

I noticed the other day that, according to my car's onboard computer, my mpg was 999 in an overrun situation.

[The Natural Philosopher]

That has been the case for ages.

[The Natural Philosopher]

wrong..they are the one type that regularly does.

wrong as usual.

[The Natural Philosopher]

Dennis is on form today. Ever statement he has made is completely wrong.

[The Natural Philosopher]

it takes at least half a second though.

I guess u never drove 'enthusiastically'

..and were heavy handed on the brakes.

However with ABS now that's the other way round too,

[The Natural Philosopher]

happens with disks too. just not so much.

[The Natural Philosopher]

wrong.