LOT20 storage heaters , old systems and changing a storage heater - anyone up on this?

[harry]

almost nothing expect the usual suspects over and again - all with their e co agendas.

eds replacing

ew equivelent heater and OH connects it in to existing system

t this in but it was not widely advertised. if it had been I would have got new heaters all round last year. The new ones are almost three times as e xpensive and appear to need new wiring too.) They have changed the rules a nd now you have to get an eco friendly storage heater which sings and dance s, costs twice as much and I dont think will run on my system but I cannot find out

a night only supply? It seems they all seem to now need a duel supply -ie a second electric point to run some fan or other daytime..... I dont need t hat! Is it possible to connect them without conecting in the day time socke t - or can it be connected to a standard socket with plug so I can switch it off via the plug switch?

st keep pounding away with other things..... some of us use E7 because the re is nothing else and we dont want LPG or oil.

storage heaters? There must be others out there with E7.

m and all singing and dancing "open window " detection to pump up the heat , even though you might have an open window because you want one?

on ebay. All I want is a simple night storage heater replacement for the bedroom.

I will ignore the trolls, thanks.

New storage heaters have a controlled heat output so you don't get heat whe n you don't want it. This is done by means of a fan than wafts the stored heat out. The fan needs an extra permanent supply (ie not off the time switch). We have had them for decades, now it seems they are to be the only ones all owed. There are significant savings money/energywise

[Brian Gaff]

I do think that the two improvements I would appreciate on my old ones are. The ability to use power not on economy 7 if need be, and some better insulation when you turn it down so the heat comes out much slower. In the UK the way the weather fluctuates needs both of these. I have otherwise been happy with mine and no nasty gas or hot water issues or boilers to go wrong. and the actual bill is not really bad at all compared with people with both gas and electric as gas seems to have gone up a lot. I had no idea that the system was changing. Seems a bit daft as if its just a replacement item that should not fall fuel of regulations. I certainly do not want any fans to be noise sources in my house. Brian

[Brian Gaff]

So how does a slow heater make any difference. Take the kettle if it takes longer to boil the water surely you have probably used the same power as you would have with a more powerful heater for a shorter time. Same goes for room heaters. Brian

[Brian Gaff]

Sorry I'm not convinced by this at all, unless somebody has made a miracle material that can totally insulate the bricks, the device will always lose heat at a low level and thus be no more efficient.

Most of my heaters are close to a standard supply as well, so one assumes a bit of creative routing of the cable would suffice, but I hope mine continue to function for a long time! I have two big ones and one small one in my house and that is all it really needs. Brian

[Dave Liquorice]

Slight confusion of "power" and "energy" but yes if you are heating 1 l of water from 15 C to 100 C it requires a certain amount of energy. If a 1.5 kW kettle delivers that energy in 2 minutes and 3 kW one will do it in one.

It can probably be argued that the 3 kW is slighly more effcient than the 1.5 kW as there is probably less radiation from the kettle in the 1 minute to 100 C compared to 2 minutes to 100 C.

Room heaters are not quite the same. They have to balance the heat loss of the room. If their power rating is less than the heat loss they won't keep the room warm.

[Dave Liquorice]

I'm on your side with regards the bells an whistles and over complication but I suspect these new fangled jobies have far far better thermal insulation than a 30 or 40 year old one. This is why they need a fan, to get the heat out...

The big problem with the old style is that they loose heat rather quickly and all the time. So come evening, when you want the place warm, the damn thing has run out of heat. As you know and you use another heater (at peak rate) to keep the room warm.

A new, "properly" insulated one should still have stored heat (from cheap rate) for the evening, mainly due to the better insulation but also down to the control system, you can set a lower room temperature for the day than the evening. The chances are that your peak rate use will drop noticeably and the off peak will probably drop as well.

The second, permenantly live supply is a PITA but if it is just for the fan/control system could just plug into the ringmain. How ever I've got the impression from somewhere that some heater may have an auxillary heater as well, one would have to look carefully at the potential loadings.

[Harry Bloomfield]

Brian Gaff explained on 14/08/2018 :

Not quite the same thing. A room heater has to have deliberate loss of heat to warm the room. If the loss of heat occurs faster than the heat input, then it will not adequately warm the room.

A storage heater has to have sufficient capacity to gain all the energy it needs, its charge, within the off-peak hours it is designed for. Unlikely, but a 300w storage heater would take ten times as long to gain the same charge as a 3Kw version.

[aprilsweetheartrose]

Thanks. If I was considering buying a new storage heater for the main sitti ng room or dining room, I would go along with getting a new better insulat ed type with a fan.

However, this one is for a bedroom and I am not convinced any fan is so sil ent it is suitable in a bedroom or that I need it there.

I did ask Dimplex directly if they could tell me if the new storage heaters could run a fan from a 3 pin plug supply but they were not best pleased an d told me I needed to get an installer ..... so more cost. OH can do it nic ely, thanks. I do have standard 3 pin plugs near the heaters in all rooms b ut if this requires separate new wiring, I will be in difficulty because ( well frankly) we have old wiring and the consumer box probably wont take any more.

I am trying to keep my costs down here, not mount them up.

I might if someone can prove the significant saving buy the newer one.... b ut then as someone has said, you run into all sorts of other issues like th e new ones seem to have different power ratings entirely ( a bit like the new and old light bulb ratings). Suppliers seem to be suing old and new no tations on this so it gets confusing.

if I buy an old style one ( and I have looked at hw site for this) , at lea st I know that I need a 1.7 kw heater and that is it.

Otherwise I may buy the part as also linked in one post. OH now informs me that both of our bedroom heaters have the same issue. I dont use the spare bedroom, I only put the heating on to keep chills and damp out.

[Harry Bloomfield]

Brian Gaff was thinking very hard :

The little experience I had of them, was in a flat. I was out working all day and by the time I got home, the heaters had lost much of their heat. To be fair, they were old units, using a simple temperature controlled flap to release the heat and a user adjustable charge stat.. I thought at the time, it needed much better insulation and much better control of the release of heat.

[aprilsweetheartrose]

To be honest I have been happy with mine. Not just that, it has always been cheap and easy to sort them out if they went wrong - and they dont go wron g anyway. Mine are around 40 years old. They were put in before I bought th e house so my estimate of age is based on the time the house was fully refu rbished - somewhere between 1977 and 1984 . The models appear to have numb ers from then.

I also checked the price against my mothers coal and wood burner and anothe r member fo the families gas consumption. I seem to do better. Gas isnt ch eap anymore and oil and coal are not efficient. As you say, they go wrong, they have issues with CO2 if they go wrong. Something I worry about.

I had no idea about the new regulations until I looked yesterday.

[John Rumm]

Would moving the existing sitting room one to the bedroom work? Then have a new style one in the sitting room.

Keep in mind the power figure is the rate of heat input and not the total energy input. So 1.7kW for say 8 hours is a maximum of 13.6 kWh of energy. It might be the room does not actually require that amount of heat, but the storage heater was specced at that capacity to allow for the fact that much of the heat will be dumped into the room at times when you don't need it. Hence it needs a larger store of energy to have any hope of having some left when you actually need it.

A heater that holds less total energy, but allows its delivery in a more targeted way may well achieve the desired heating profile equally well.

Some also allow a top up from peek rate electricity. Obviously more expensive to use like that on a given day, but the overall sum may actually be favourable. Say the device needs 10kWh of heat stored to cope with the 30 coldest days of the year, but only 8kWh for "normal" days. Charging to only 8kWh on cheap rate all the time, and then topping up the extra 2kWh from peak rate will actually be cheaper overall, since you are saving 2kWh x how ever many days you need the heating on Vs the expense of buying 60 kWh at peak price rather than e7 prices.

[Andrew]

But you only have a few hours from about 1AM to about 7AM to store sufficient energy to last the day.

[Martin Brown]

It allows you to still boil water on a shaky electric supply that can't actually provide a full 13A 240v. Some 100v countries have permanent electric kettles that are essentially an insulated flask with an element in that dispenses hot water to order and run at around 50W continuously.

A room heater that isn't able to keep up with the losses from the room will never make it warm (at least not until midsummer).

Fan heaters work better in this respect since storage heaters have a bad habit of being way too hot at night, making a nice thin layer of very hot air against the ceiling during the day and then being stone cold in the evening when you would actually like some heat back out of them.

The new generation of storage heaters seem to be incredibly overpriced and underpowered. Been looking at them for our village hall.

[Tufnell Park]

I think you need to seriously question if a replacement storage heater is the answer in this case. If it is a bedroom you wish to heat why not consider a plug-in wall mounted convector heater with a buit -in or plug in timer. You can by one a lot cheaper than a storage heater will cost. You can run it just for the hours the room is in use (plus preheat)

The running costs of using night storage heaters are questionable these days as the night rate on most E7 tariffs is usually way more than half the day rate.

For example, a 3kW storage will consume 21kWh per night on E7 at a notional cost of 10p/kwh gives £2.10 per day. So you could run a 1kW convector heater at full power (in practice the thermostat will cycle on and off) for at least 10 hours @ 20p/kWh for the same cost.

[PeterC]

Mine's the old sort (I kept one as a back-up) and when I first tried it the room was baking when I was out at work and cold in the evening. Stuck in a lot more insulation and then it was just warm to the touch and I could turn up the 'stat in the evening and get enough heat foruntil bed time. Warning: it has TWO knobs and doesn't connect to the 'net, so not useable by modern morons - oh, it's also 3.4kW - naughty!

[Dave Liquorice]

Was going to say wrong until I checked what my tarrifs have been since April 2013. Back then off peak was 35% of peak, my current tarrif is 45%...

No, they have a maximum core temperature once that is reached they cycle on the "input" stat. So once charged from cold they only take what they have lost. My off peak is 6.67p/kWHr, peak 14.67p/kWHr (+5% VAT).

Hum, I feel that another section is going to get added to my cost/tariff selector spreadsheet...

[Dave Liquorice]

Agreed, at the end of the E7 period an old style storeage heater is damn hot, almost dangerously hot and the room far too warm. Better control of when the stored energy is released is going to reduce the total amount consumed. "Better control" meaning higher levels of insulation and time of day related temperature set points.

[Dave Liquorice]

That depends on the fan. Small and fast, like PC fans, are noisey. Large and slow are not.

On the "consumer" or "techincal" helpline? That would be the expected response from the consumer helpline - arse covering. Most people don't have a half a clue about anything "practical".

See if you can get the installation instuctions and/or a full specification sheet. The former should tell you want any permenant supply needs to be, the later should enable you to work it out.

[Dave Plowman (News)]

Not really surprised they cost more these days. Must have very limited production compared to years ago.

Older ones are such simple devices it must be possible to repair one?

[aprilsweetheartrose]

On Wednesday, August 15, 2018 at 11:03:44 AM UTC+1, Dave Plowman (News) wro te:

Well, OH thinks they should be repairable but the part concerned is an obso lete one - and to make things worse, it seems they had several types back w hen and it is difficult to work out which, although we have been given the link to one here which could do the job. It looks the same but has a differ ent number on it.

More than that the new replacement isnt quite the same .

I would be happy to get a new storage heater . I am inclined to go for the old type because I can get one it seems for £200 . The new type will c ost me £560 for the same size - and thats another problem because they seem to have altered those in the same way as they altered light bulbs - y ou know, the new x wattage = 40 watts old style or whatever. Anyway, its not the same sizes.