Land drainage

[Bill]

Hi, does any one here have any experience of surface water disposal and pipes etc? My parents, elderly, have been approached by a property developer asking permission to run a pipe across their land from a new development of 4 houses to carry surface water run off. The alternative is a soak away. The pipe would end at a small stream at the edge of parents property. The land is mainly trees and bracken and has not been visited by anyone apart from me a few weeks back for many years as it is at the bottom of a steep bank and has been left to nature. Badgers, foxes rabbits etc. Any way the main question is what would this be worth to parents? They have been told that the developer is willing to pay a one off payment for the pipe but no figure has been discussed yet. There is a very boggy area near to the stream where the out flow of a number of septic tanks joins the stream, this has been caused because the pipe carrying it stops about 100 feet short of the stream. Guy who laid pipe stopped at this point for some unknown reason, it was 50 years ago. For about 50 years before that the out flow had just run along a ditch and into the stream.

My thoughts were that a bit of barter may be a good idea here, the developer runs his pipe f.o.c. In exchange for finishing off the one that carries the septic tank water thus drying out the boggy area. I do remember in years gone by that before the very small ditch silted up the land was not boggy and so, I would hope, it should dry out if the pipe was extended.

A bit rambling but the main question is, how much is it worth to the developer not to have to build a soak away in a limited space? He is already making provision for either a septic tank or cesspit to take sewage etc. this will be pumped out and allegedly have no water running from it into the surface water run off. My parents are not out to make money from the deal as they are quite content as they are but would rather like the bog drying up!

I know "how long is a piece of string?" but any comments most welcome.

[Rick]

My expereince of this is from the end of the devloper, some things to think about.

Your parents will need a solicitor to represent them, the 1st thing is to have his bill paid by the devloper, and then have the solicitor negoiate the deal. There are issues of maintance of the pipe in future to consider, and the land being devalued as you can't build over the pipe. You make like to get an advisor to work out the ammount to charge, again the devloper should pay this bill. So even if nting happens the devloper may have 2 bills to pay.

I would guess you are looking at 5K upwards, depending on how hard it is for the devloper to dispose of the water in any other way.

The devloper will also likley need a "consent to discharge" from the environment agency. Depending upon the size of the stream, they could also run the output form a package sewage treatment unit into the stream.

Rick

[AT]

If the watercourse is a stream then Rick is correct, the developer would likely require a "consent to discharge" from the EA. If you parents live in a flood area then the stream may well be a drainage ditch if the banks are built up, in which case it would likely be managed by an Internal Drainage Board. In such a case, consent would be required from the IDB, in addition to a 9m easement from the bank top edge plus access to the easement for maintenance. However, it doesn't sound as if that is the case here. The effectiveness of a soakaway would depend on the percolation characteristics of the soil.

If there are badgers living near where the pipe would be laid then the developer may require an Environmetal Impact Assessment to be carried out.

AT

[Bill]

In message , Rick writes

Perfect.

We had considered the maintenance and assumed some form of right of access for the developer/home owners, this I presume would be written into the land registry details on my parents home and those of the new home owners too? As for devaluation of the land we are lucky to some extent that it is very unlikely, impossible, that it will ever be built on or developed as it is totally inaccessible and is beside a railway embankment so is really only of use to the wildlife that lives there.

I like the idea of the developer paying all the bills too!

We had not even considered as high as 5K so that is interesting as a figure to start bargaining from. The developer has, rather stupidly I think, said that the council has already refused him permission to dispose of the surface water into the drains that are in the road.

Looking at a planning application that has gone in for the site this was covered by saying that the water would be allowed to drain onto an area of ground, which belongs to my parents! They were going to question this any way but the developer has possibly realised he doesn't own this land and having looked at it further found the stream, it is rather well hidden.

I would have thought that this would have made sense, the only question it may bring up is if the environment agency actually realise that there is already the out put of six septic tanks going that way at the moment. I don't know a lot about how these things work but the water is remarkably clean, not that I would want to drink it mind you, so I assume that the tanks are working as they should.

It is a very out of the way rural area and strange things have been done there before. The council couldn't understand why some fields started to have a flooding problem a few years back, the answer was that one of the home owners had found a broken pipe under his garden that rats were coming out of and so he blocked it with a bag of cement, the present owner of the house knows nothing of this!! It appears it was part of a very old drainage system that was not recorded any where. He is now long dead and the council put in extra drainage in the road to remove the flood water!

I just took a look at pen-y-geulan.com is this yours? It reminds me of a property that I used to visit that one of our neighbours owned sometime back in Parc, not too far away.

[Bill]

In message , AT writes

Definitely not a flood area.

We were worried initially by the development as some of the land is reclaimed. There was a quite steep slope going down 50 feet or so that was built out with soil etc. from a power station site about 45 years ago. Although it has not moved recently I would not fancy a house built on it. Apparently the developer has plans to put some piles in this area to build on. Anyway one thought that I have is that knowing this they do not want to put any more water into the ground than they have to in case it causes it to move.

The badgers are the other side of a small valley a couple of 100 yds away. Although they will know what is going on it is not near their set. There are only a very few people, close family who are aware that they are there as we prefer to keep it quiet, there are some out there who seem to dislike them. An interesting thought though.

Thanks AT for your comments.

[Mark]

you could be opening the biggest can of worms you have ever imagined with this.

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[Bill]

In message , Mark writes

Having checked the land registry records for 3 of the existing houses feeding their water into the stream at the moment there is no mention of it. The thing that worries me is if something had to be done about it what would that be and how responsible would my parents be as the pipe ends on their property. There again it has operated for this long and appears not to be causing any noticeable problems.

Also that is not the present concern. Yet.............

[clot]

Firstly, do your parents have a waste discharge to the watercourse that the EA doesn't know about? It sounds very likely to me. Would their neighbours be keen for a can of worms to be opened?

If the developer wants to send surface water under their land then obviously that land is higher than your parents? Being that it is "reclaimed land" it is probably highly unsuitable for "soakaways" and hence the enquiry. Since the former industrial activity in the area, has there been significant residential development in the area? If so, would it be an opportunity to have the area properly sewered (S 101 agreements). Just thoughts. Beware the developer - he could just be in a fix that he did not anticipate and shiny baubles could be his way out!

[Bill]

In message , clot writes

Quite likely.

Most unlikely!

Mostly on the same level as far as habitable land is concerned. The part they want to run their pipe and the area we could do with having dried out is some 50' lower than theirs though.

My thoughts too.

The power station was 10 miles away, they needed to dump large amounts of earth at little cost so the deal was that they dumped the earth etc. for free and the land owner gained some flat land.

Not that simple logistically unfortunately.

I have the feeling that he is and is possibly regretting his purchase of the land.

Anyway thanks to all so far for their thoughts.

[The Natural Philosopher]

Wronmg question. What is it worth to developers. At least 50 grand probably, since they would probably lose a whole plot making a soakaway on their own land.

Caveat. The moment someone touches that septic tank outflow, it comes under various controls..and septic tanks are largely not allowed anyway more - you need a biological digester. So what is the most likely outcome is that whoever owns it would need to upgrade it.

I do

IIRC a soakaway has to be a certain distance from a house - sufficiently far that it can't use the attached postage stamp gardens anymore.

There is a soakaway pit by a new development here - for about 20 houses. It takes up at least a whole plot.

My advice is to mutter on about 'bnot wanting to get involved' and 'have to upgrade half the sewage systems in the area to get it all properly sorted' and finally 'too old to want to have all those diggers trundling across the garden...need to move away while work is done..cost a fortune'

Then wait till it goes well into 5 figures.

[The Natural Philosopher]

Hear hear!

[Bill]

In message , The Natural Philosopher writes

True, that is what I Understood, although not what I wrote.

Interesting.

You missed out the most important one, "it will disturb the horse, he will not like it!"

My mother has already started on the muttering, she has many years experience of muttering!

The next meeting is apparently next week so I will see what they offer parents, who have been told not to accept the first offer, probably not the second and then through in the request for the extension of their pipe too. Could make for interesting watching.

[Tony Williams]

[snip]

My instinct would be to have nothing to do with it, or him. Let him build his soakaways on his own land.

I wonder if the chap was trying to create a reedbed? Reedbeds do have some respectability now. Might be worth some research on plantings to improve it.

[Cicero]

Despite the risks it might be a very good opportunity to get the whole situation regularised - probably at the developer's expense. His new houses appear to be worthless white elephants unless he can get rid of the surplus water. I doubt if you can hide the output of six septic tanks forever so it might be to your advantage to find out how they came to be there in the first place.

Cic.

[Bill]

In message , Tony Williams writes

I thought of that, could be an interesting idea, it was not his original idea though. He took the pipe as far as he thought necessary at the time and then stopped and let it run in a small ditch to the stream. Unfortunately as it is well away from where people normally go, only a rather adventurous Welsh Cob dares go there, it has become over grown and well trodden over by the horse and his predecessors.

[Mark]

If the other 6 septic tanks discharge on to the OPs land by way of a covenant, it could fall solely to the OP to comply with any EA pollution discharge notice into a watercourse. Expensive would be an understatement ;(

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[Rick]

devloper, some things to

I'd start thinking more towards 50K if the PP says the devloper will dispose of water onto your land, especially if all his other options are limited, and the houses are built. 5K was a low figure so you did not get excited.

The "consent to disharge" is relativly new, so old stuff running into a streak is ok, but mist new stuff requires it.

try

for my DIY project. we don't rent the cottage out any more. I need to tity up the website.

Rick

[fullflow plumbing]

You have Mr Developer over a large barrel & can pretty much name your price. Work out what the property would sell for and works backwards from the figure. i.e if builder is looking for £100k profit, depending on how greedy you are id start at £50k. He`s got no choice in having to settle with you from what i`ve read

Richard

[Bill]

In message , fullflow plumbing writes

Hi Rick and Richard, I've just spent a weekend in a rather wet Pitlochry and then have to come back to thinking of even more water!

Today I received an offer from him which is lower than the above so I am tempted to write back that I was expecting something higher but without stating a figure and see where he goes. There again I was also tempted to state a figure and meet him in the middle but as his figure is so low I might just wait and see what his 2nd one will be. The problem is that he does have the option of a soak away and if I take it too high that will become his answer. So I don't want to push it too far. Although the soak away is going to be far from ideal because of clay in one area and reclaimed ground in another. Apparently the clay layer is 8 feet thick so he will have to go below this.

That could save us some hassle, I've looked at the deeds etc. and there is only mention of pipes crossing neighbours gardens and no mention of the final discharge. I have found that there are only 3 houses and not 6 using this route though. The 3 I had thought also used it in fact go into the council system that is slightly higher and runs down the public road. ( In a pipe before any one comes up with a witty comment.)

I'll take a look in a moment.

Don't forget the soak away option though.

There are to be 4 - 5 houses on the plot, without finding my copy of the plans I'm not sure if 4 or 5 right now, it's difficult thinking straight after 3 days with little sleep! I seem to recall an approximate price of £400 -500K each so the figures we are talking about would be a very small percentage of the final sale price.

I just hope he doesn't read uk.diy there again it may speed up negotiations if he knew of your suggestions.

[terry]

Sitting here on the other side of the ocean with very little knowledge, if any, of British regulations and law but having read the suggestions posted; my personal inclination would be to do nothing at all. Don't get involved.

Reasons; a) Opening the can of worms about septic outfalls! b) It's up to the developer to get his plans approved and satisfy 'the authorities', how come he is already building without a plan for disposing of sewage? c) Once the houses are sold and their titles are in the hands of the new owners the developer will be 'off the hook'! Free to go somewhere and build something else and sell that and again move on. d) Dealing with several newer neighbours if/when future trouble occurs might not be pleasant and might be costly for (presumably more elderly) parents and if dissent occurred might affect value of their property. Or even prevent it's sale. e) Suppose there is a lot more affluent than presently anticipated; bigger families, draining/pumping excessive rainfall, emptying a future swimming pool etc.

At very least; get a lawyer who is skilled in these matters on the basis that the developer (who may be out of business 18 months from now? Or operating under another name?) pays for all costs and deposits a security bond to be held in escrow against potential future problems for the next 'x' years. Based on the suggested value of the four houses (1.6 million???) a 20,000 pound bond might be suitable?

Personally I wouldn't accede to the request and/or touch it with a barge pole.

Two Canadian cents from here.