Keyed alike Euro Locks on all doors?

[Mike Pepper]

We're shortly to have an extension built which will involve all external doors being replaced along with new ones being built. I'm considering going over to having Euro locks on all doors, (and the garden shed and gate), with a keyed alike system so that the 'key footprint' in my pocket is smaller. SWMBO is convinced this will be less secure, but as a potential burgler only needs access to *any* one door of the house I argue that it's no less secure than having a differently keyed lock on each door!

Does anyone have any views or experience of this? - also are Euro locks themselves any less secure than traditional large keyed deadlocks? (Obviously in each case we'd be looking at the relevant BS standard - can't remember the number offhand).

Here's what we'd be looking to secure:

2 x doors at front of house (probably will be wood) - either of which could be final exit door. 2 x patio doors, - will only need to be lockable from the inside 1 x back door, (wood or UPVC) - needs to be lockable from inside or outside, but will probably not be final exit door [Finally, possible (if funds permit), conservatory door at rear which would be in series, (i.e. downstream of), the back door mentioned above].

Any input from the group gratefully received as usual. Mike

[Ben Micklem]

in article [e-mail], Mike Pepper at mike [e-mail] wrote on 30/10/07 11:28:

I have 2 locks on our wooden front door (1 auto-deadlocking mortise nightlatch, 1 Union BS mortise deadlock, both Euros cylinders), back uPVC door (Euro), shed (Yale-like rim-lock cylinder) and sidegate (mortise sashlock, Euro) all keyed alike. Works very well. But was very expensive. The BS deadbolt that take euro cylinders are generally very pricey. For wooden doors, they will need security escutcheons. Just search and found this one that looks good- the euro cyclinder is protected from the outside- making it fairly immune from 'snapping'.

There are lots of key types that can be used in different types of cylinders- e.g. I have a rim-lock on the shed with a Yale-style round cylinder that is keyed-alike with all the euros. Some ranges include padlocks (and some padlocks can take eurocylinders). And up the total cost of everything when choosing a brand/supplier.

Technically, the BS will only apply if you use the cylinder supplied with it, but an insurance company would have to be very though to notice (most would just accept the BS mark on the lock plate).

One thing to remember when having a large suit of lock keyed alike is to remember to look at the key- for example, mine has a razor-like spike at the front- I have cut myself on it- I wish I had checked the key. This only really applies to 'normal' keys- the flat 'dimple' ones, and other double-sided designs usually can't make such sharp bits.

Ben

[Mary Fisher]

I've no experience of Euro locks but we've had the same lock on our outside doors for many years. Getting rid of several keys on the bunch was a great relief.

A bonus is that all our 'children' only need one key too.

The quality of the lock is more important than the number of keys.

Mary

[Andy Hall]

Agreed and three additional points.

- When selecting brand look at availability of the different required cylinder lengths. I needed cylinders of different lengths and with the cam at different offset positions. Not all brands have a comprehensive range. Generally one wants to avoid having the cylinder projecting from the door to any degree

- It may be worth adding a key theft/loss product to the home insurance policy or choosing a policy with it included. If one key is lost, all cylinders have to be replaced. Where keys differ, they may not all be on the same keyring and may not all be lost at the same time.

- Rather like burglar alarms it probably better not to include the subject of locks and types in household policies in order to secure a discount. The discount is usually small and the terms provide a means for the insurers to weasel out of paying or to reduce compensation.

[diy-newby]

We have euro locks on our rear patio doors. Last weekend, we were burgled. Copper and locksmith said the same thing. "Euro locks are $hite". I won't divulge how they got in, but it was down to the euro lock. If these are the ONLY lock source on that door, beware. If you use these, have additional locks as well.

THESE EURO LOCKS CAN BE BREACHED VERY EASILY - I know, to my cost!!!!!

[Rumble]

There are a few issues to consider. Here are some that come to mind...

1. You might have a set of keys to every lock in the house, but your child may only be issued a front door key. If your child loses his/her front door key, you have to replace *all* the locks in the house, with the attendant delay whilst the locksmith re-pins your locks (or makes up a new set).

1. Burglars look for an easy way out (and like to have escape options) in case they are disturbed/the cops turn up. The more difficult it is for a burglar to get *out* of your house, the less time he is likely to spend *in* your house.

2. BS3621 "insurance approved" locks with Europrofile cylinders are not so easy to come by and comparatively expensive.

1. Have you heard of "lock bumping"? try wikipedia and youtube. If you decide to go the Europrofile route, make sure you get a "secure section", and in particular, make sure that your key section is not the standard Yale section. This will add significantly to the cost.

2. Cylinder locks are (generally speaking) easier to pick and easier to drill than "traditional" mortice locks. However, as a commercial locksmith told me "burglars don't pick or drill locks - they ram-raid or kick the door in or break windows or crowbar or "loid" the doors or windows - or simply walk in an unlocked door whilst you are watching the telly. Having a good fence and security lights round the back of your property is a better deterrent than a strong back door. Make sure the neighbour's house looks a better bet".

HTH

[fred]

In article , Ben Micklem writes

Ah, the holy grail, where did you find one of them? I've used a union escape lock to fake one up in the past.

Thanks for the link, better prices than I've seen on other BS approved euro setups.

All good stuff, my own opinion is that I wont rely a euro as the sole security on an exterior door, I'd use a euro lock at shoulder height with a conventionally keyed deadlock at just above knee height, then you're down to 2 keys. For non final exit doors you could substitute bolts or additional patio door locks for the second mortice.

[Mary Fisher]

I did say that the quality of the lock is ... etc ...

We have two locks on each outside door, one at the middle rail and another at the bottom rail, where we used to have a bolt. They all use the same keys.

Mary

[Mary Fisher]

That last is a very good point. I reckon that all the local lads know what's in our house and don't want it. We have nothing of value which could be sold. The valuable things we do have aren't easily recognised - books and pictures for example. and our neighbours' houses certainly do look more attractive :-)

They all have burglar alarms too, we don't.

The things we'd miss most are tools, in the garage. That's like Fort Knox, with several locks, long bolts, alarm - and so much clutter in front of the doors it's not even easy for Spouse to get in!

Mary

[Ben Micklem]

in article snipped-for-privacy@y.z, fred at [e-mail] wrote on 30/10/07

13:39:

I found it new-old-stock eBay for under a tenner- can't remember the make- it was a discounted line. has a few options. Mine looks identical to the Briton (and is also oval/euro, so is probably the same thing).

Ben

[Ben Micklem]

in article fg78uc$ti5$ [e-mail], diy-newby at [e-mail] wrote on

30/10/07 12:42:

I think we can be fairly sure that any details of how they got in would not be news to a burglar that was savvy enough to search usenet for tips.

Was it a 'snapping' of the cylinder? You can get 'safe-snap' cylinders that are design to break off at a weaker point than the middle, leaving a couple of pins connected to the cam still. Or just mount the cylinder flush with the outside of the door, as they should always be.

'Bumping' can get around lots of types of cylinder locks, not just euros, but the chances of a burglar carrying a bump key of an obscure profile are slim. Some Euro cylinders are immune due to using dimple keys, some have magnetic/sprung active/mobile components in the keys, etc.

It is not that there is an insurmountable flaw in the Euro design, you just have to be aware of how they should be installed, and choose a cylinder design that has a security/cost balance that you are happy with.

Most cylinders that come with uPVC doors are unbranded, may only be 5 pin, and may not have any anti-drill prevention, may be installed with the cylinder protruding, etc. The salesmen can make more sales when their doors have hook bolts, shoot bolts, etc. which are easy to demonstrate to the customer. These things cost less than a really good cylinder, which the customer cannot immediately see is superior- so the money is saved on this part of the door.

Look at a Kaba Star cylinder:

26 pins, the external part of the cylinder is round and so almost impossible to snap. Or the higher end Mul-t-lock cylinders:

When the mounting is secure, and the key system is secure, there is no reason why a Euro is inferior to another lock system.

Ben

[fred]

In article , Ben Micklem writes

The bit I was getting excited about was the auto deadlocking mortice latch but the nightlatches at lockshop don't really do that, well except for the Chubb 3R35 but I don't count that as the latch has such a pathetic throw.

I've used a union escape sashlock with euro cylinder to get a similar result. The escape function links the latch operation to the euro cylinder and the latch spindle holes are just blanked off. You get extra security by throwing the sashlock deadbolt.

There's an ASSA escape sashlock that looks good for this job too and it has DIN Grade 4 security rating.

[Ben Micklem]

in article WsulHTA$ snipped-for-privacy@y.z, fred at [e-mail] wrote on 30/10/07

15:12:

Ahh, I think we have a difference in definition of auto-deadlocking. I think you mean that a deadbolt is automatically thrown, or a latch that extends more when the door is closed. My less stringent definition is basically an anti-thrust latch. The latch I have doesn't have a large throw, but it is a substantial piece of metal (much bigger than the latch on a sashlock), and cannot be retracted by pushing it when the door is closed.

What I wanted in a lock is different from this- I wanted to be able to close the door, and there be a bolt that couldn't be easily retracted from the outside in place, but still be able to open from the inside with a normal door knob. When we are out of the house, we always use the knee-high deadbolt.

Ben

[RobertL]

We have all doors keyed alike with eurocylinders. the front door locks when closed but the oethrs have to be locked explicitly with a key. the front door can also be deadlocked using a key on either side.

two thougths:

1) Don't use the same key on the gate: Someone could remove the cylinder and take it to a locksmith to get a key made. It's the same reasoning that means that petrol cap locks on cars should not use the same key as the car doors or ignition.

2) the eurocylinders we have are such that you cannot put a key in on both sides at the same time. This means that you can lock yourself out (even if you have a key) if you leave a key in the inside cylinder and then close the door.

Robert

[Ben Micklem]

in article [e-mail], RobertL at [e-mail] wrote on 30/10/07 15:40:

How would they know that the house was keyed-alike with the side gate- it isn't a very normal thing to do...?

Good point- the ones that can take two keys are called 'fire safe' or such-like.

Ben

[Andy Hall]

Not that common to put a euro lock on a gate in this country.

But there is a minimum length for these - can't remember what it is off hand.

[Andrew May]

If I am understanding you correctly this is the arrangement I have on my front door. I have two Euro-locks one at the top and the other at the bottom. They are locked with keyed-alike keys and I lock them both when the house is left empty. By the handle I have another Euro-lock again keyed-alike but with a thumb-turn on the inside. I lock this at night when I am in the house. It means that it is possible to exit in a fire without having to find the key first. Works for me.

Andrew

[nightjar]

Or you choose a master key system and have a sub key for the front door that you give to the kids. In that case, only the front door lock needs to be changed if they lose their keys.

Colin Bignell

[Rumble]

Absolutely, except that now it's getting really expensive and master key systems are inherently less secure than just keyed alike... ;-)

[nightjar]

I've gone one stage further and use a master / sub-master / slave key system for all the locks I need to use. They key I carry will open my house, my factories and my place in France. Sub-master 1 will open my house only. Slave 1 will open my garden gates and garage only. Sub-master 2 will open my factoreis and the office. Slave 2 will open the factories only. Sub-master 3 will open my place in France only. Slave 3 will open the garden gates and garage only. I get a discount on both my house and business insurance for the level of security attained.

The more secure ones - you need at least six pins and preferably seven - tend to be a bit long for a standard 44mm external door, making them potentially vulnerable to being broken open with an adjustable wrench. That means you need to use a security escutcheon, which provides a smooth, round and conical outer face. That usually needs a couple of bolts through from the inside, which, in turn, means you need to buy a lock that has holes for the escutcheon bolts. You really need to talk to a proper locksmith to explore all the possibilities.

Before choosing uPVC, check that the oveall length of cylinder required and the lengths needed on each side of the operating cam are available for the cylinder system you have chosen.

Colin Bignell