heating and bathroom query..

A friend wants to upgrade his bathroom on a tight budget..I am just fact finding.

Its a small one person cottage, and he probably wants to ditch his aging bath for a decent shower.

Currently he has a triton 7KW power shower thingie, which is barely adequate and looks ghastly. He wants it out. Then we revamp the tiny bathroom with new units tiles/light etc. It really is gloomy and ghastly and stinks due to water leaks, a dead rat behind the bath, and no extractor fan.. etc..

The hot water system is an oil fired Myson - about 15 years old - in a nice outhouse built against a chimney, and exhaust going straight up the stack via a 4" cast iron pipe and then I think a flexible lined brick flue..all done proper.

Really nice installation actually. Unless its raining when you want to access it. There is certainly room for any under-counter boiler in there, and plenty of width.

The central heating is a manifolded microbore system, and works well enough.

The hot water tank (about 150l estimated) has its own header built in upstairs in a bedroom with another small header tank above that..so two headers? presumably the CH is unpressurised and that's the basic cold water header. Water supply is excellent in our area. It has never failed all the time I have been here. No need for tanks. Pressure is at least

3bar..maybe more.

My thoughts are that the cheapest solution would be to scrap the Triton, and install a pump downstairs in the bathroom to run the shower.

Do these things pump hot *and* cold together? I assume flow switches sort out when they are needed? Are they legal inside a bathroom? (no big deal to mount elsewhere)?.. I've seen prices in the £120-£170 bracket for positive pressure pumps..any ones to avoid?

The other option is to fit a combi and go mains pressure. I am no combi fan, but the low occupancy rate (one person, seldom more) and restricted space (there IS no loft. Rooms go up to the rafters throughout) make it attractive..it would also release bedroom space where the current mess of header and hot water tanks now are. But...

What would it cost? It's oil..how good are they? could we expect increased efficiency?. He's running on about 900 quid of oil a year.. Will the existing microbore CH stuff be able to cope with increased pressure? Ditto the HW/CW pipework? What makes to avoid like the plague?

His life expectancy is about 30 years (over 60), so solutions need only last that long. :-)

I am trying to give him a decent estimate of costs..particularly the opportunity cost of not using a pump, but stuffing in a combi..this is a long term attractive option because above the existing bathroom is a room off the main bedroom that would make a great ensuite bathroom for an elderly person, if there was room to actually hang their clothes in the bedroom where the bloody tanks now sit..bit right now money is damned tight.

His income as an actor and thespian, is irregular and highly variable, so its a question of planning in the hope that he lands a major film or west end run, rather than bit parts in soaps etc.

Any thoughts welcome.

Don't worry about the actual bathroom fitout..I have enough information and experience to cost that.

Its the combi-versus-pump costs that I need a handle on, and an idea of the complexity of fitting one.

TIA NatP

Reply to
The Natural Philosopher
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Quite.

They do if you get a double-ended one.

Yes.

Subject to IP rating and zones, yes.

Syuart Turner seem to be the ones to go for.

However, they can empty tanks fast. The existing HW tank and header might not be adequate.

How much?? I'm surprised you haven't mentioned the I-word yet.

Probably and probably, but some rad valves might weep.

Potterton Suprima... :-) Pass on the oil boiler technicalities.

One thing to bear in mind is that a combi does not give the backup of an electric immersion heater so easily. It also does not have a tank of stored hot water to last through power cuts etc.

Would changing to LPG be an option? Would give a much wider choice of boilers, and allow a nice gas hob and gas fire as well (gas fire useful backup in power cuts[1], and easier to manage than solid fuel if he's getting older[2] - or letting the cottage to holidaymakers for extra income)

Owain

[1] I used to live in a rural area with frequent (weekly) power cuts so forgive me if I sound rather obsessed with them. [2] I know, we're all getting older all the time, but there comes a point when it *matters*
Reply to
Owain

ta for that.

Hmm.

Thats more a reflection of lifestyle than insulation.

Mm. however power cuts are infrequent..use of the space the tank would liberate would be daily...ideally I'd say mains pressure system with the tank by the boiler in the outhouse..

Nah. Nowhere to put the tanks. Its as expensive as oil anyway.

Reply to
The Natural Philosopher

Is oil a solid fuel >:-)

Adam

Reply to
ARWadsworth

Only at *very* low temperatures!

Reply to
Roger Mills

Sounds fair. With a 150L tank and presumably a smallish cold cistern you would probably be better off with a smaller pump rather than a monster stip your skin off pressure washer style experience one. Stuart Turner do a 1.4 bar one that will perk up a gravity shower quite nicely, without being excessive. I used on of these on a shower for SWMBOs aunt, and she was very pleased with it:

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Do these things pump hot *and* cold together?

Usually yes, unless you get a single impeller one. It is a good idea to give it a dedicated cold feed from the cistern - positioned below the outlet to the hot cylinder if possible - that way if you run out of water it is the hot that stops. If you can't manage that due to the nature of the cistern, then you can get round it by fitting a thermostatic shower that has built in scalding protection.

Yup.

Yup legal in a bathroom in zone 3 or outside. Stuart Turner seem to be the ones to go for. Not had enough experience of other makes to comment.

If its just showers that are required then it would be suitable solution.

Pass, will leave that for someone who knows oil boilers.

Depends on the amount of insulation current there, and whether the current setup short cycles etc.

Probably

Anything cheap ans nasty with bolt on secondary heat exchangers.

With a lowish pressure pump then they are usually quite easy, you can often get away without a dedicated Essex flange take off for the hot water. Last one I did worked fine using the normal top outlet of the cylinder. (I was prepared to make a Surrey flange for it if required, but it did not need it). Electrics are simple enough - you normally need switched FCU from a nearby power circuit. Include the pump pipework and the CPC of the circuit feeding it in the bathroom equipotential zone.

It sounds like you will incur the price of a shower mixer either way so that does not really figure as a difference. So I would guess worst case cost of a pump is going to be less than half, but probably as little as a quarter of the price of the combi.

Reply to
John Rumm

Same is true of gas ;-)

Reply to
John Rumm

Sounds like a job for a Venturi shower - cheaper and easier than a pump or replacing the boiler, and should give a really decent shower in that setup.

A
Reply to
auctions

Copper pipes will take a sealed system. Just clean it out.

Combi oil boilers are great, as they have large boiler water jackets which is similar to a thermal store of water giving high flow rates. Some oil combis have increased water jackets for this reason. Get a condensing oil combi boiler. You also get rid of the water tanks.

The oil tank and everything else is there so cost may no be as bad as you might think.

Look at

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Do a search on oil combis, the details are there and then look up the makers web sites.

Reply to
timegoesby

Numpty me.

I was thinking there might be a solid fuel fire in the lounge, because oil isn't very good on the decorative fire front, and there often is in cottages anyway.

Owain

Reply to
Owain

Hmm. It seems that quality costs money.. a decent high output oil fired combi comes in at well over a grand..or a decent pump at around

150-180.. BUT I can get a decent 'boilerhouse' (uncased) boiler for maybe 650..and it seems to me that maybe that plus a small pressurised tank wouldn't work out any more expensive..that could be fitted in the boilerhouse..there's about 4 ft height in there

Mm. enough for a megaflo 120L cylinder..but arranging safe pressure overflow pipes might be a shade tricky. No drains to discharge into handy at all.

Reply to
The Natural Philosopher

An unvented cylinder is not cheap, even the smallest, making your oil boiler choice, cylinder, controls and pipes about the same price as the expensive combi. 1. You want to create space in the house by removing water tanks and 2. give high water pressures. Keep researching oil combis. Price them up, look around, you may get one way under =A31K. The unvented cylinder has to be fitted by an approved fitter, which is not cheap, and they need an annual service as well, which is more cost. Look at the bottom line price.

I would go for an Albion Mainsflow thermal store rather than an unvented cylinder, as they are cheaper in most cases, DIY fitted and less hassle.

An oil combi is the best solution in your case by a mile as it addresses all your problems in an elegant easy way. Keep looking along that road.

Reply to
timegoesby

Oh, there is - a nice woodburning stove..but that is not part of the discussion..

Reply to
The Natural Philosopher

Yes. Thats about what I got to anyway..

  1. You want to create space in the house by

Hmm. Not sure if mine was fitted by an 'approved fitter' but he was a dunce. It certainly hasn't been serviced annually.

There is space in the boiler house you see..quite lot of it. So either solution removes the header tank and upstairs hot water tank.

Well I just didn't see one at a reasonable price designed for boilerhouse installation with enough peak output for a decent shower..need around 20KW at least I reckon.

I don't think adding a heatbank would be cheaper than system boiler plus unvented tank..I found a boilerhouse boiler basically te naked gits of a system boiler - for less than 700 notes..with around 650 for an unvented tank thats 1350. I could NOT FIND a combi at that price with

20KW capacity. Not even the dreaded potterton..
Reply to
The Natural Philosopher

On my first Google hit I undercut that figure. Look harder.....ask around too...

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Reply to
timegoesby

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