Gravity Fed Oil Pump?

[isthatthetime]

Our oil tank used to sit up high on concrete blocks, however we were recently advised by the man who serviced our boiler that we could happily site the oil tank on the floor and the boiler would pull the oil through. This we have done - we were having some ladnscaping done and took the opportunity to move it slightly and put it on slabs - this was done by the landscapers.

I have just tried to bleed the boiler (something I have done before myself) but with no success. I phoned another heating engineer who told me that my boiler must be gravity fed and the tank shouldn't sit on the floor - I'm inclined to agree with him and think I was badly advised first time.

My boiler is a trianco and the burner is Riello/RBL.

The new chap is suggesting putting in a different burner as you cannot fit a different pump to the burner I've got. He can fit a recon one for =A3200. This seems fair to me and I think is what I'm going to go for.

I would be grateful for opinions on this in case I am being badly advised again. I could go and argue the toss with the original man who advised me in the first place, but I don't think I will have a leg to stand on.

[Grunff]

You can have the tank at the same level or lower than the pump, provided that:

1. The pump generates sufficient suction
2. You install a tiger loop in the oil line

Installing a new pump is only half the answer.

[John]

An indication of the relative levels before and after also the length of pipe and size would enable us to get an idea of what is involved. Also whether the tank is empty or full or somewhere between.

I have just tried to bleed the boiler (something I have done before myself) but with no success. I phoned another heating engineer who told me that my boiler must be gravity fed and the tank shouldn't sit on the floor - I'm inclined to agree with him and think I was badly advised first time.

Maybe but there are a hell of a lot of chancers out there. I get very depressed by the state of some of the "jobs" I come across, supposedly installed by professionals. Most of the problems can be readily overcome by simple application of o level physics but this is apparently beyond some installers.

My boiler is a trianco and the burner is Riello/RBL.

Nothing wrong with either of those.

The new chap is suggesting putting in a different burner as you cannot fit a different pump to the burner I've got. He can fit a recon one for £200. This seems fair to me and I think is what I'm going to go for.

Hes a chancer trying to take money from your pocket and pout it into his! forget it and look at the problem from an engineering viewpoint.

I would be grateful for opinions on this in case I am being badly advised again. I could go and argue the toss with the original man who advised me in the first place, but I don't think I will have a leg to stand on.

Assuming your tank fuel level is above the burner the pump should prime if the pipe is not blocked or kinked. You could find a problem if it is restricted by kink or its size/length but without the info I asked for first its not possible to say with confidence. If the tank fuel level is below the burner it will not self prime and you will need to intervene manually to achieve priming. In extreme cases it might be neccessary to employ a dearator device but give me the info first.

BTW where are you located?

John

[isthatthetime]

The Oil tank is about 1/3 full - the tank is now probably lower than the pump - the oil is definitely not coming through of it's own accord so the level could be below the pump. The pipe is about 35 metres of

10mm copper.

The pipe runs from the tank, down underground, along, then up, along a bit and down, then along again underground until it rises at the boiler.

I have tried waiting for gravity to push the oil through (taken the pipe off the pump) and also tried sucking it through - this seems to get the oil through the pip, but it drops back again.

The boiler and burner will probably be inexcess of 20 years old.

I'm in Norfolk

cheers

Jeremy

[isthatthetime]

The Oil tank is about 1/3 full - the tank is now probably lower than the pump - the oil is definitely not coming through of it's own accord so the level could be below the pump. The pipe is about 35 metres of

10mm copper.

The pipe runs from the tank, down underground, along, then up, along a bit and down, then along again underground until it rises at the boiler.

I have tried waiting for gravity to push the oil through (taken the pipe off the pump) and also tried sucking it through - this seems to get the oil through the pip, but it drops back again.

The boiler and burner will probably be inexcess of 20 years old.

I'm in Norfolk

cheers

Jeremy

[Harry Bloomfield]

[e-mail] used his keyboard to write :

Just a thought on this problem, I have no idea of the legalities of doing it....

Might it not be possible to fit a second small tank at a higher level and then pump the oil into that first using an automatic level switch to control a pump?

[Grunff]

But why on earth would you do that? That's crazy...

[Harry Bloomfield]

When looking for a solution, all possible options should be considered.

[mcbrien410]

Is the oil tanked vented OK.

Remember the principle of the open ended 'U' tube.

Chris.

[Grunff]

Not stupid ones, no.

[Harry Bloomfield]

Grunff explained on 30/09/2005 :

Stupid ones, yes.

All possible options, even the stupid ones. Then by a process of elimination and costing, you work out which are the useful ideas.

[Grunff]

[Harry Bloomfield]

Grunff submitted this idea :

You are blinkered in your thought processes.

[John]

The friction losses "should" be overcomable by the pump suction but your pipe is a bit on the small side for that length. Its a case of being possibly ok despite rule of thumb.

If you can suck it through your pump "will" be able to suck it through as it can suck a lot harder than you can.

No matter. There are various options for which pump will be fitted though. Your pump should have ports available for connection of two flexible pipes, a suction from the tank and a return to it or to allow the use of a Tiger Loop dearator. Does yours have one or two pipes connected to it (not counting the high pressure pipe to the burner nozzle)? Can you give the model number of the burner? Does it have a single multifunction (grey) control box sitting on top of the burner casing which has a round red illuminating reset button about 20mm diameter at the front or another version?

Too far to drop in and see you then

[John]

Crazy is a bit of a blanket reaction. The best solution is the simplest. In this case there should be no need but I have come across exactly this solution for "very" (20 metre) high lift applications in a warehouse.

[Michael Chare]

I am surprised at your situation.

I have always found the technical people at Trianco quite helpful.

You could also ask Reillo see:

have a Trianco boiler with a Danfoss pump which uses a two pipe system.)

Replacing the whole boiler for a more modern one might be worth considering, bearing in mind that condensing boilers may soon be compulsory (except in some circumstances.)

[John]

1. Please snip at appropriate points for correct attributes to the OP.

1. You are correct that Trianco and other manufacturers are helpful, however his is a simple problem of practical advice required to establish flow through an oil pipe.

2. The replacement with condensing versions is not mandatory for oil - yet, and the guy has already said he is boracic at the moment (presumably spent his budget on the landscaping he mentioned). A Riello/Trianco boiler is likely to be extremely efficient anyway (even an old one) as long as it is set up correctly.

[Michael Chare]

There was an issue about the relative heights of tank and boiler. The boiler manufacturer would know the capabilites of the pump.

Danfoss would also know if they make a suitable replacement pump.

Not so long now though. My concern is that some of the non condensing boilers will no longer be made.

I hope that you are right about the efficiency as my boiler is a similar age. I am a little dubious about the SEDBUK efficiency figures as heat lost from boiler casing and chimney pipe can still heat the house.

[isthatthetime]

Thanks to all for your replies. We have gone with the recon burner unit as it seemed the most cost effective solution. This has worked a treat and also given us a quieter boiler. I am now convinced that our old pump HAS to be gravity fed - so it simply wouldn't suck the oil up. I think if the tank would have been full, it may have worked - until it was half full again!

cheer

Jeremy

[John]

Riello don't use Danfoss pumps, they have their own which bear the letters R.B.L. (Riello Burners Limited)

That shouldn't cause a problem. Condensate pumps can be used if a suitable gravity drain cannot be provided which has long been the way of things in the AC industry. Most other factors can be overcome. When the time comes to replace the boiler it can be done but I reckon there will be some current steel cased non condensing oil boilers still going strong in ten to twenty years time.

Heat lost "into" the house is not really lost is it? My boiler provides heat to the downstairs cloakroom, aires and keeps shoes and coats warm (and the cat requires a crowbar to get it off the top).