EPC - diy possible?

[David J]

As many know, HIP was suspended (not abolished) on 21st May 2010. But what was left behind, courtesy of the EU, is the Energy Performance Certificate (EPC) which is compulsory at the sale or new rental of all properties in the UK. A set of bands from A to F is produced, rather like those used on a new domestic fridge.

These EPCs are only available from an 'accredited energy assessor' at a fee to be paid by the seller.

What I would like to know is why this 'calculation' is a secret, only available to those who have paid about £2k for a course that includes the required software used. I realise that the various factors need loading, but that should not be too difficult to manage.

Should not this piece of compulsory information be in the public domain? If you can work out your own income tax, what is so special about energy efficiency?

David J

[Tony Bryer]

The methodology is in the public domain at

key issue is that EPCs can only be issued by accredited assessors, and to be an assessor you need to be signed up in one of the schemes ... which, as you've realised, doesn't come cheap.

[John Williamson]

A flip answer is that it's just another tax on selling.

The accredited assessor is independent of the vendor, so is, in theory, impartial, and responsible for any errors in the report. I would certainly not trust *any* report produced by the vendor, should I be buying.

Part of the cost is for the liability insurance. If you think it's expensive for domestic premises, you should see the cost for commercial places. I've just had a shop and a flat over it checked, and the shop, which is basically one room and half the size of the flat, cost over twice the amount charged for the flat.

[Tony Bryer]

But the reality is that no one cares. I did a lot of work (pointlessly as it turned out) on my UK home before selling - the agent said mine was the first older property he'd seen that had a 'C' rating. Did it make any difference? No. I can't imagine one vendor in a hundred leaning on the assessor to produce a better rating.

As to liability, surely all you can sue the assessor for is the difference between what you would have paid had you known that the property had a 'D' versus what you paid because it purportedly had a 'C' rating. A negligible amount compared with what you might be claiming for a defective structural survey.

[jgharston]

Too true. Say to a potential buyer: this house will use =A310 a year in heating, and they'll say, No! Gimmie that one! It's in the right catchment area!!!!

JGH

[John Williamson]

See the first line of my post.

All I was saying that I would not trust an EPC known to be generated by the vendor.

That's why I'd be doing my own searches and survey, no matter what it said in a HIP, if they still existed.

[newshound]

Except that taxes get spent on something, perhaps even something useful.

Presumably you can't even just declare an F?

[David J]

It's clear that SAP 2005 is a very complex document, with over 100 boxes to be filled in to reach the final calc.

I cannot imagine one of those accredited assessors working their way through all that detail/tables of the house construction, although their s/w obviously reduces this to a manageable level...

(interesting refs to your work on steel beams)

[Tony Bryer]

SAP proper is used for new builds. For EPCs on existing homes, RD [reduced data] SAP is used, with certain broad-brush assumptions made which are appropriate for (say) 90% of homes. You can find these in SAP2005

Appendix S. The way in which the actual rating number translates to a band A-G is in Table 15

[John Rumm]

Indeed, and understandable. However given the choice of paying for your own EPC or not having one at all, which would you choose?

I would guess that energy performance as a deciding factor in which house to buy is pretty far down the list for most buyers. Especially as its something you can improve after purchase.

Most conveyancing solicitors insisted on doing the same for obvious reasons. One of the many ways in which HIPs were fundamentally flawed.

[Another Dave]

As far as I know, this has nothing to do with the EU. The EU requires that member states monitor the energy efficiency of their housing stock but a random survey of a sample of properties would suffice for this. The EPC was dreamt up by UK government/civil service.

Another Dave

[Man at B&Q]

It's known as "gold plating" and happens with a lot of EU regs as they are passed into UK law. Other countries seem to do the bare minimum to comply, or just ignore them completely. Must be something to do with the British sense of "justice" and "fair play", LOL!

MBQ

[Tony Bryer]

Here in Victoria an estate agent is not allowed to accept an offer on a property unless the prospective purchasers has been given what is called a section 32 notice - effectively a HIP. I looked at one property as a potential investment and the s32 revealed outstanding legal action between the Owners Corporation (similar status as UK freeholder of a flat) and the original developer; I took no further action and wasn't out of pocket on survey or legal expenses.

I really don't buy the argument that the vendor might have fiddled the contents - it would be bound to come out - and as to the argument that things might have changed since the report was done, they're far more likely to change in the years that you own the property and no one ever worries about this.

[John Williamson]

As it's a legal requirement when a property is sold, I don't have the choice of having one or not. I've never bought a home with one yet, though, so the matter didn't come up, though I did poke my head into the loft and check for insulation amongst other things.

Given that, I'd rather have one prepared by an accredited professional than Joe Public. The cost is factored into the house price by the agent anyway, as was the cost of a HIP.

A process which the EPC can help you with, unless you do your own full survey before purchase. It comes with notes as to how the energy efficiency can be improved, and a guess as to the result. Knowing what's recommended can also help the purchaser guess how much it's going to cost to update the property and adjust their offer accordingly.

[Tim Watts]

John Williamson ( [e-mail]) wibbled on Thursday 06 January 2011 12:12:

"Marketed", technically.

Which means you need one as soon as you advertise the property. enforcement is down to the local council, same dept as do Weights and Measures...

[John Rumm]

I realise that, hence why I said "given the choice". In other words, say there were no EPC provided by the vendor (and no legal requirement for them to do so), would you still commission your own EPC at your expense for a place you were buying?

The cost is factored into the agents fees - not quite the same as the house price.

From those that I have seen, I am not convinced. The assessor makes a visual inspection of the property, and when is not able to see something, guesses at the answer, even when information to the contrary is available from the vendor. The result is a work of fantasy that seems to have little foundation in fact in many cases.

The suggested remedies are simply a boilerplate list of things that could be done. The only concession being to filter out those not immediately applicable.

[John Rumm]

Depends on what you mean by fiddled? There is a vast difference between a vendor deliberately hiding something, and one just doing the absolute minimum required to comply with the law.

For example, say you had a suspicion that your property may be possibly attract chancel fees, however you have never actually been told this, and have not so far ever been charged. Would you commission a chancel search if it were not on the list of required searches?

Say you needed to commission a survey, again you will probably go for the cheapest and quickest. There is also a fair chance that some surveyors would win favour (and repeat business) with agents and vendors by raising the fewest problems with their reports... much the same a many garages may know the best place to take a car for a MoT without it getting too much attention to detail.

[Andy Dingley]

No, sold.

A HIP was needed to market the property. EPC is needed if it's sold.

We bought our place (two years ago) direct from the seller who had never marketed it, and had neither HIP nor EPC. We needed to pay for the EPC ourselves before we could complete, as neither party's solicitors would permit completion without. As we were buying from a crazed hippy and we were running out of time on the mortgage offer, the notion that the seller ought to be paying for it became moot.

[Tim Watts]

Andy Dingley ( [e-mail]) wibbled on Thursday 06 January 2011

15:02:

Ah - OK. Fine.

I thought they were part and parcel of the same package...

Interesting sounding vendor...

[Andy Dingley]

Right PITA to be honest.

OTOH, I now have 1,000sq ft of workshop, which is why I was still so keen to buy it.