Enough water for a good shower?

So in summer with ground water at 15 degrees, you will probably get something like 13 lpm from it of shower temperature water. During the winter that will fall to 11 ish (depending on losses in the pipe run etc). Feeding a conventional shower head that would represent a fairly decent shower.

(the 15 lpm combi I had in my last place would do a very good shower with a little spare capacity, or two "ok ish" showers at once). One shower was a Mira 88 manual valve with a slightly "water saving" head on it. It would swallow probably 8 to 12 lpm on its own. The other was a Bristain bar mixer (but on the third storey so that lost another 9' of static head (about 3.5 bar at ground level)). That would probably take up to 8 lpm at most. When both on then consumption of both would fall a bit).

It will vary with time of year.

You also need to factor in your cold main flow rate. That needs to be enough headroom over what the combi can do to ensure that cold demands from elsewhere in the house do not affect the shower too much[1]. I used to find with my setup, the cold main could only do about 18 lpm. That tended to mean that adjusting the shower temp could be tricky. Adding more cold for example, would steal a little flow from the hot, which would in turn result in its temperature rising, giving a dead spot in the controls. Sometimes you needed to overshoot the desired temperature and then edge back towards it from the other side.

[1] giving the combi first bite of the cherry from the cold main helps as well.

Erm, no I think that would be a 'kin massive soaker head ;-)

I note on some sites the phrase "Suitable for high-flow rate systems only." is included - alas no more detail. I would think an enquiry to the manufacturer would be in order.

Well, if there were expert plumbers they would probably not be working as a sales assistant! ;-)

Reply to
John Rumm
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Yep - I'm not trying to claim that combi boilers are better than conventional ones, simply that if your hot-water system - of either type

- is inadequate then your shower will be sub-par. The point is that just because my boiler is teetering on the edge of adequacy doesn't mean the fault is necessarily that it's a combi. In this case the problem is insufficient instantaneous heating power, in my parents' it's insufficient storage capacity.

Presumably, though, if your boiler can manage a hot shower with no (or very little) pre-stored heat, it actually has enough power to run the shower with instantaneous heating were it plumbed that way?

Pete

Reply to
Pete Verdon

Mm. I've never had any trouble with insufficient mains flow, but I don't know more than that or how to measure it.

I guess my potential for other uses are someone filling a kettle in the kitchen or flushing the downstairs loo. I don't notice any issues here with the current shower, and hopefully the thermostatic valve I'm likely to buy will even it out if the higher flow does mean I'm closer to the limit.

Sounds like a nightmare for non-technical people using the shower :-)

Hmm, not sure about that. The kitchen tap, stopcock and pipework up to the bathroom are all pretty much in one corner, whereas the boiler is on the other side of the house.

Heh. Well, I can dream :-)

I just wish the manufacturers would publish the details without being asked. Most electronics stuff has datasheets online, consumer-electronics you can often download the manuals these days, but in the plumbing world all you get is a picture and a small handful of content-free marketing words. This is the first time I've had to deal with it and it's really frustrating.

I don't expect an expert plumber, but I do expect someone to be able to look up the details of a fitting on his computer or a paper catalogue and say "this shower-head requires 15lpm to work properly; that's quite a lot for a small combi and you might need to check if it will manage".

Cheers,

Pete

Reply to
Pete Verdon

There is usually a practical limit to how fast a combi can heat water - the size of the boiler itself - the size of the incoming mains water and gas etc. As regards storage capacity it's quite a simple matter to increase it to large enough amount for domestic use. Although many don't actually store the amount of hot water they claim to due to the way they are heated.

I actually said a warm shower. ;-)

Reply to
Dave Plowman (News)

A bucket of know volume and a stopwatch using the best flow rate tap in the house (probably at the kitchen sink, or perhaps the bath)

They seemed to cope - it not hot enough so you twiddle, makes little difference, so twiddle some more, repeat a few times, woa, too hot, twiddle back, ah that's better ;-)

Which suggests other users will have a bit more effect on the feed to the combi. Not a show stopper - just less optimal.

Perhaps they consider the answer would deflect too many sales. However once sold the cost of the thing might instigate the upgrade required to save wasting the first purchase...

Reply to
John Rumm

As others have said, it's easy enough with a bucket and a stopwatch. You don't even need to know the capacity of the bucket provided you can weigh it in Kg - first empty and then after filling it for a measured time. [1 litre weighs 1Kg].

Well, they're hardly going to tell you something which may dissuade you from buying it, are they?

Reply to
Roger Mills

Really? So it comes out of the mixer at 1 degree above blood heat, falls through some cold air, hits my skin, and still counts as hot?

40 3/4 and about 12 lpm for mine. I'm honestly surprised that it's as cool as that.

And the only time we ever ran out of water in our cylinder was when my son and I had showers at the same time. And yes, we do have 2 showers!

Andy

Reply to
Andy Champ

According to the people who make such rules, yes. Apparently most valves do allow them to be "calibrated", which would also let me adjust the stop temperature upwards a bit.

To be fair to them, "blood heat" is a bit higher than skin temperature (piss feels warm) so a 38º shower wouldn't feel merely "neutral".

Cheers for the data-point, assuming this is a shower you're happy with.

Pete

Reply to
Pete Verdon

It goes both hotter and harder than that. That's where I run it.

Andy

Reply to
Andy Champ

This is ver yuseful:

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suggests that a 35kW combi will give you 14 l/m in summer , 18 l.m in the winter. they use 42C as the standard shower temperature.

BTW, 18 litres/minute (=3D0.3 litre/sec) needs a 22mm pipe if the flow rate is to be under 1 m/s (and therefore quiet).

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Reply to
RobertL

sorry, got summer and winter reversed...

R
Reply to
RobertL

"Pete Verdon" wrote in message news:4967b3d4$0$508$ snipped-for-privacy@news.gradwell.net...

Roughly it is 2/3 hot, 1/3 cold for a shower. Your combi is small by today's standards @ 10 litres/min, which do notr forget gives 300 litres in

30 minutes - a 300 litre cylinder is big. So you can get 15 litres/min (mixed) from your shower. That is a good shower. But your combi will be flat out to do that.

When it is combi replacement time in the future, then get a high flow model of 38kW minimum. The difference is highly noticeable.

Reply to
Doctor Drivel

50 litres in bath? It must a be a small sit-in bath. The modern average is around 100-110 litres and the older 150 litres.
Reply to
Doctor Drivel

"Pete Verdon" wrote in message news:4969ee6f$0$508$ snipped-for-privacy@news.gradwell.net...

The modern quality high flow models are better. If you have the mains pressure and flow they are the first choice over tanks and cylinders. Many come with integrated weather compensation for the CH too.

Using a quick recovery coil and a 24kw system boiler (approx same kW as your combi), if you turn on from cold, you get warmish water, enough for a shower after about 5 to 8 minutes. But not for long. The coil takes all the boilers output, but stratification in cylinder means the water at the top is warmish rather than hot. using a plate heat exchanger and bronze pump rather than a cylinder coil means you can get very hot water at the top and once the dome of the cylinder is hot, it acts like a combi and you will not run out of hot water as long as you do not exceed the boilers output in water being drawn off - well that is how combis work anyway.

Reply to
Doctor Drivel

Thanks. It looks like I'm going to be OK, provided I don't go completely mental on the size of fitting. I am still going to contact a manufacturer or two to ask what the design flows are for their heads.

That shouldn't be too much of a problem, since this is the only shower in the house. Usually by the time I am having a shower (and I'm being selfish here :-) ) my housemates have already left for work.

Yep. I had a look at the Worcester-Bosch site the other day as an example, and kind of had my eye on the largest non-floor-standing type that they do. Its lowest-power setting is several kW below the lowest-power on my smaller existing boiler (greater range of modulation) so presumably I'm not going to suffer problems of over-sizing.

Pete

Reply to
Pete Verdon

W-B are behind many others and the range needs updating.

The Broag 39C, has a 5 year guarantee. They use primarily industry standard components and little plastic with Honeywell brass hydrobocks. The Broags are better quality than Vaillant and much cheaper. They are a well priced quality boilers having a superb control system with integrated outside weather compensation and OpenTherm control protocal control.

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I strongly suggest you go for the Broag 35C or 39C combi using the weather compensation - integral with boiler - if you do update.

The Magnaclean is essential on a Gianonni heat exchanger and on any system.

Reply to
Doctor Drivel

I was going to warn you about waking up drivel, but here he comes below :-(

Dave

Reply to
Dave

You will now learn a lot.

Reply to
Doctor Drivel

sorry, got summer and winter reversed...

I do not think that anyone will notice after the last summer we had:-)

Adam

Reply to
ARWadsworth

Hopefully what most will learn is to take all you spout with a pinch of salt. Did you write the claims for CFLs too?

Reply to
Dave Plowman (News)

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