End-feed or solder ring copper fittings

[Mike Dodd]

I've had a quick look at the faqs, with no joy...

I've been called upon by my sister to replace radiators in her house... a friend of a friend has installed new CH and Rads from a "conventional radiator pack". Judging from the size of the rads they're about 1/2 the size that is required for an old, uninsulated house with tall ceilings (e.g. I've calc'd main-room, 14ftx12ftx12ft needs 2.3kw, rad is probably

1kw [800x600 twin panel]). [separate issue, we're going to insulate the loft, don't let that detract from the remainder of the story]

So... idea is to replace two largest rooms/radiators with 1400x600 twins, then progressively move the removed radiators through the rest of the house, replacing next-largest with newly removed radiators.

In principle, I have no real problem with the work involved.... nice access below the floors, a bit of modification to pipe runs to take, what for the most of it are wider radiators. BUT... the question is... I anticipate replacing sections of 22mm pipework to accomodate the larger rads... online prices suggest a 20% price differential between solder-ring fittings and end-feed fittings.

As all pipe-work is new (clean copper), given some wire-wool, would the

20% difference between solder-ring fittings, and the price of solder/flux mean that one or the other is more economical... for someone who's not soldered pipes in 20 years, is one quicker/easier than the other?

Basically, with 6/7 rads to replace (/move around), what would be the generally concensus as to the cheapest method (considering I'm buying all blow-torches etc. from scratch)

Any advice, as it affects the actual cost to my sister, gratefully received.

Regards

Mike Dodd

[Mike Dodd]

Sorry, to clarify... what I'm really asking, I suppose is... are solder-ring tee-pieces / joints generally PREFERRED to end-feed?

I remember from many years ago (dunno where or why?, maybe just a random read) that solder-rings, you have to make all feeds/outlets, before applying heat, then wait for the solder to just "wet" the visible pipe... whereas end-feed, you're applying solder to all ports, with heat applied, and looking for a clean wetted joint.

Flux required for both?, or are the solder-rings pre-fluxed?

Either product easier / more reliable than the other?

Mike

[Ian Stirling]

End feed is more inspectable - you can see the ring of solder around the edge, and if it's got to the other side of the fitting, it's pretty certain that it's complete. However. With constrained access, solder ring is easier. Flux (a light smear) should always be used.

Solder ring is certainly the more expensive method - from toolstation -

60p/fitting for 22mm equal t, and 1.40 for solder ring.

End feed is also neater, in many peoples view - especially when no excess solder is used, and the solder is put on from the back.

[Vortex]

Sounds like a lot of potential hassle to me.

I'd be inclined to finish insulating the loft, then await a really cold spell to judge empirically if the existing rads are adequate or otherwise.

You might find that only 2 or 3 rads (or even none) need attention with pro-rata hassle reduction.

Oh yes......I'd use end feed all the time.

Of course in this instance one additional complication you may have is residual water in horizontal pipe runs which could make soldering very frustrating. Worth havung some compression fittings in your bacl pocket just in case.

david

[Lobster]

But you also get the ring of solder appearing with solder ring fittings just the same as with end feed - I don't see any difference between the two from that point of view.

I've only fairly recently graduated from using end-feed fittings as my default choice, and did so on cost grounds; but I would say that solder ring fittings are definitely the easier of the two for an experienced plumber to fit. Yes, they do cost more, but TBH I think for the OP the appropriate cost comparison is his DIY work versus professional fitting, which makes the difference between end feed and solder ring fittings trivial in comparison.

David

[Dave Plowman (News)]

If you're going for solder fittings, reduce the costs further by using end feed rather than solder ring. The principles of soldering both are the same - cleanliness, the correct heat and restricting movement until set. And of course making quite sure there's no water in the tube.

Practice first on some scraps of tube. It's not a difficult skill to acquire.

[Dave Plowman (News)]

Same with yorkshires.

I don't see how - if you can get a blowlamp in you can also the solder.

I wouldn't worry about it being only a light smear. It's more important to use enough. Excess can be wiped off afterwards with a damp cloth. I favour an aggressive type like EverFlux, so keep it off your skin as much as possible. Being water based any excess inside the tube can be flushed out before commissioning.

[Dave Plowman (News)]

One trick is to use a vacuum cleaner etc on blow to dry out a pipe run - assuming you can disconnect the other end.

[The Natural Philosopher]

My first end feeds were blobby, but sound.

Now they are pretty good.

Always clean pipe with wire wool, and inside fittings as well, and always use flux.

All the pre-loaded ones do is get solder in. Can't see the point mainly.

[Dave Liquorice]

I'm not a fan of solder ring, principally from the looks but having had to use some 22mm recently they are less fuss than end fed. Clean pipe ends, flux, insert pipe rotate to spread flux, heat until solder shows around joint. Job done.

Having said that push fit is much, much, quicker. There is a certain satisfaction in neatly bent and solder joined copper but it's terribly slow compared to the same pipe work and push fit joints and even slower than plastic pipe and pushfit. I have a feeling that my next plumbing job may well use pushfit and possibly plastic pipe, provided it is hidden. In view will still use proper bends in copper and end fed.

As you are gearing up from scratch with blowlamp, flux, solder, protective mat, pipe cleaner, pipe cutter, half round file to deburr ends, etc I'd look very hard pushfit all you need is a pipe cutter and deburrer (appropiate for the pipe in use). Plastic pipe is also cheaper than copper...

[EricP]

I always used solder ring but having watched trade doing it with end feed, will always use end feed now.

Apply heat for one-two-three seconds, apply flux on a spatula, apply solder. Inspect, job done and quickly.

[John Rumm]

My choice is end feed for a few reasons:

Cheaper, look nicer, and they heat faster so you can finish the joint quicker.

Get a decent blowtorch with a well focussed flame. I have a Bernzomatic Quickfire which works well for me, but have used a wickes one in the past that was OK although a bit on the large size.

Get a good pipe cleaner - Wickes do a nice pipe cleaner that will deburr the end and clean the outer of a pipe in one action. Its blue, and cylindrical - costs about a fiver and well worth it. It does 22mm one end and 15mm the other, much easier than wire wool.

For clean new copper a mildly active flux will do fine. I usually use Fry Powerflow.

[John Rumm]

With most fluxes it is more normal to apply it to the cold joint during asembly - rotating the parts to get a good even distribution. The amount of heating will depend a litte on your torch, and the type of jont being made (e.g. an equal tee will take more heat than a straight).