electric versus petrol

[williamwright]

I need a small car. How do the costs compare, over, say, ten years, for petrol and electric? I'll only be doing low mileage.

Bill

[SH]

you can buy 2nd hand Nissan leafs for short trips..... they are good value for money apparently

[Andrew]

At the moment, you are only paying 5% vat on electric so provided you don't need to regularly go long distance you might be better off. On the other hand tyre wear will be increased because of the constant weight of the battery and insurance might be more??. On the plus side there may be places where you can go and/or park simply because you have an EV.

[charles]

I'm paying less for my new Enyaq than I was for a 5yo Mazda 6. Last week's Times seemed to agree that electric cars were cheaper to insure.

it's the green flash on the number plate that helps.

[ARW]

So how much was this car and what will it be worth in 5 years time?

And the range?

"Figures shown are for comparability purposes; only compare electric range figures with other vehicles tested to the same technical procedures. These figures may not reflect real life driving results, which will depend upon a number of factors including the accessories fitted (post-registration), variations in weather, driving styles, vehicle load and the starting charge of the battery. Figures for battery electric vehicles were obtained after the battery had been fully charged. Battery electric vehicles require mains electricity for charging. Data correct at 1st January 2021. Choice of wheels and other options may affect consumption and range data."

So not 330 miles with the air con or heater on.

[Tim+]

Well, I guess if you count charging bays whilst you are charging, then possibly yes. Do you count petrol station forecourts as special parking bays?

The green flash counts for nothing, at present. It?s just a declaration that you?re in a full EV, not an ICE or a hybrid.

Tim

[Theo]

When I've done insurance comparisons, a Leaf comes in about the same as a similar petrol car.

With electric there's much less servicing costs - no oil changes, clutches, ATF changes, exhausts, DPFs, much reduced brake wear so fewer pad changes. It's basically change the pollen filter and that's it. There are the usual suspension repairs (CV joints etc) and occasional brake fluid changes like other cars.

If you're buying secondhand, get to know how to find out the battery state of health - on a Leaf look up 'battery bars' and 'LeafSpy'. Mileage isn't a good guide, much like it isn't on a petrol. Batteries tend not to go pop but the range slowly degrades - might have been 100 on a good day when new,

80 on an average day, which might be more like 60-80 on a worn battery. Leafs don't have liquid battery cooling which is why they suffer from battery deterioration much more than others.

For Renaults avoid the ones with battery leases, which cost an extra £50pm.

Something like an Mitsubishi iMiev / Citroen C-zero / Peugeot Ion (all the same vehicle) is a good if basic town runabout (~60 miles range) and they're cheap now.

Theo

[Steve Walker]

While I agree on some of those, my car is 9 years old and my wife's is

16 - neither have needed clutch changes, replacement exhausts or transmission oil changes yet.

I would actually like to get an electric car, but at the moment it just wouldn't work for us. We need one car to be the family car, capable of carrying 5 people, plus luggage and towing at the same time, travelling long distances at a moment's notice (more than once we have received word of a family death in the evening and had to get from Manchester to the West coast of Ireland by the following morning for the funeral).

As we have two cars (necessary, as I need one for work and my wife is disabled), a small electric one would make great sense for the second one. However, her car does very few miles these days, so the electric one would have to be my daily driver to make any sense, but she simply would not drive a large car at all, so that option isn't open.

[Michael Chare]

Battery life maybe an issue if you are expecting to keep the car that long. The batteries ar expensive to replace. I hope that you can charge the car when it is on your drive. I don't like handling electric things in the wet when it is raining.

[Paul]

You can find reports of that type.

If you're only getting groceries with the car, then that's an ideal use of BEVs. You can program the home charger to fill the car to only 70% charge, and that will improve the degradation properties of the battery pack.

The charge cycles on a pack, is a function of chemistry. Most countries will have Lithium Cobalt chemistry in the car. And that's probably what the report above is based on. The Chinese, for their domestic cars, use Fairy Light batteries of Lithium Iron Phosphate. These have half the capacity of Cobalt, but they also have an extended number of charge cycles. Such a chemistry means that potentially, a ten year old car will have better resale value. Even if the range of a Chinese domestic car, only suits driving to work.

You have to check in at the "forum" for the brand of car you have in mind, to see what the users say about it. Someone buying your used car later, is going to be reading the same forum posts to see what people have run into. If there is an uncommon failure mode on the car, as the years pass, that will receive more attention.

And they make tables for easy comparison. So you can see the claims of each brand. The Chevrolet Bolt and Nissan LEAF might be suited to grocery runs. After ten years, there should still be enough battery capacity left to get groceries for some time to come. They're not exactly Paris to Dakar rally cars.

The size of the wheels, affects fuel economy, which is why some cars have two entries (two different wheel sizes). A solid front grille and wheel covers, help improve highway wind resistance.

Paul

[fred]

Range anxiety is so last year. The average UK motorists daily mileage is very low. so overnight top ups at home are the answer. Yes I know all about those who cant access home charging etc. Lifes a bitch

[Dave Plowman (News]

I'd say impossible to predict. With energy prices on the move. And the inevitable - as income from petrol etc duty decreases, they'll have to get it back one way or another.

Saw on telly yesterday that freight train companies are switching to diesel on electrified lines, as it's cheaper than electricity. Of course their fuel will be duty free.

[Dave Plowman (News]

On a low milage car, I'd not expect to have to fit a new clutch in 10 years, assuming a reasonable driver. ATF is often now 'lifetime'. The last car I owned for a long time (about 15 years) never needed a new exhaust.

[NY]

My Peugeot 308 has done 186,000 miles in 13 years and is still on its original clutch - unless it was replaced within the first 18,000 miles of the car's life, before I bought it, which is highly unlikely. I've never had a car before that has done more that about 80,000 before it needed a new clutch. The bite point is *beginning* to get a bit high, but there is no hint of slipping.

[Steve Walker]

Normal daily mileage may be low. But what of the family holiday, the trip to a family wedding or funeral, etc. Suddenly the same vehicle needs to do a high mileage and quite likely without a long enough stop to charge, anywhere that they want to stop.

[The Natural Philosopher]

The problem is not average mileage. It is peak mileage.

You have to design for worst cases.

[Steve Walker]

On the other hand, I tend to keep cars long enough that they end up between 100,000 and 150,000 miles and the only one that has needed a clutch has been my very first car - which needed one when I bought it ... however, it was four years old and had been a driving school car!

[Spike]

When the winter range of an EV drops due to an ageing battery, what are the comparative costs of battery replacement and ICE servicing over that same period? After all, the value of the EV will plummet due to battery-replacement costs, so to keep its value a new battery will be required.

[Roland Perry]

In message [e-mail]>, at 15:00:21 on Fri, 15 Oct

2021, "Dave Plowman (News)" [e-mail]> remarked:

One freight train company is mothballing 10% of its fleet - twenty ageing AC locos.

[newshound]

Although I see that off-road construction vehicles are going to have to move on to white diesel, only agricultural vehicles will be allowed to stay on red.