Economy 7 and storage heater supply issue

[Brian Gaff (Sofa]

Why is it that when something important is going to go wrong, its always at the most inconvenient time, no don't answer that its Mr Sod. Now many years back I took advantage of a warm front grant to get three storage heaters, chosen as they are mechanical controls and hence easy to use for the blind. They have worked well over the years. I'm not going to branch off into discussion of what is best, but I do now have a problem and realised there are at least two significant facts I need to know before I have to grab my wallet and ring somebody about having no main heating.

1. Where will I find the circuit breaker for the Economy 7 supply? I know where all my others are and only this morning had to push one back in due to some odd reason. They are simple push buttons in a holder. However if I can find the one for the Economy 7 supply, then I can push it in if its out, which would then allow me to see which of the two that were on on Christmas night is the one that tripped it. However, if its still in, we then have question 2 to answer.

2 Where is the economy 7 switched from. Is it likely to be yet another little box under the same cupboard, or is it actually the meter, cos if it is the latter than I rather imagine EDF, my current supplier are liable since the supply will have failed. This of course on a smart meter, could be software or hardware, but I don't care, just sport it before we get a cold snap. Bear in mind that the smart meter has been in only since October and has been working. There is nothing on the smart display that indicates if Economy 7 is working or not, just lots of numbers and the current tariff rate. Unfortunately the heaters have no alternative connection to the main supply so I'll have to wait till the middle of the night to see if the circuit breaker trips won't I? Exactly what are the hours for Economy 7. All I can say is thank goodness I did not have the hot water fed from the same supply, it has its own time switch and operates from the upstairs ring main. Merry Christmas.. Not. Brian

[Owain Lastname]

In an older installation there would normally be a second consumer unit with the Economy 7 circuit breakers, one for each heater. There probably won't one one single breaker for the whole Economy 7. Newer installations may have a dual-tariff consumer unit.

That sounds like you have an old Wylex board that has had circuit breakers retro-fitted. I would be very careful poking around those as they may not be touch-safe.

If it's a smart meter it should be switched in the meter - you should have live and neutral in, live and neutral out, and an off-peak live out (5-wire meter). Again, caution when poking around with fingers.

They vary, intentionally, so the whole country or region does not suddenly turn on or off with a bang.

An electrician would temporarily connect the off-peak fuseboard to the permanent supply for testing.

Owain

[Mark Carver]

At my mother's house it's a spring-reserve timeswitch (installed 1966), which has drifted over the years. In fact it went wildly wrong in October 1987, when the power was off for 5 or 6 days, and the spring ran out of, well, spring ! Now her heaters come on during the day, and the 'Afternoon Boost' is late evening. My late father gave up reporting it to the SEB, so it's still like it now.

[Brian]

Brian,

Please do not be offended by this suggestion.

If you contact your supplier, they should have a priority contact for vulnerable people. They will almost certainly either send someone or at least advise how to fix the problem yourself. Even private companies who, for example, service / repair heating do this. We have a service contract on our heating and, when it fails ( a rare event) one of their first questions is if anyone is vulnerable/disabled etc.

Companies have teams to deal with emergencies. Years ago, we had a gas leak by the meter- I noticed it by chance as the meter is outside in one of those cupboards. I turned off the gas and reported it. The man arrived in what seemed like minutes, replaced the regulator thing, checked the boiler worked etc, and left after a cup of tea. Darn impressive - and that was just for a non-priority customer.

[alan_m]

A reported gas leak is always a priority call!

[John Stockton]

I believe that there is no significant variation in the duration of Cheap Rate(s), so if one can identify the turn-on time (immersion heaters may become audible, and there may be a light that comes on) one can predict the turnoff time.

If you can identify an acceptable means of turning the power to that switch off, you can turn it off for a total of something like 16 hours, thereby making it (near enough) exactly 24 hours slow. Think more deeply if any "off" interval is on the last Sunday of March or of October.

[Robin]

(Top posted for Brian)

With a spr> >>>

[Robin]

(Top posted for Brian)

You might have only 2 tails coming from your smart meter. Not all setups need a third one.

Is it > >> 1. Where will I find the circuit breaker for the Economy 7 supply? >

[John Rumm]

In my limited experience there is probably more than one circuit breaker. It's not uncommon to have a second CU / fudebox that houses all circuits that are powered from the E7 supply.

Sounds like the Wylex MCB replacements for the old BS3036 re-wireable fuses, that just push into the old fuse carrier base.

Normally these are much taller than the old fuses, and prevent the cover being replaced on the fusebox.

Not sure I quite follow that... However if a storage heater is tripping a circuit, then you could probably isolate one heater at its swithched flex connection unit if it has one. See if it still trips a MCB, and switch off a different one instead.

You may have one 15A fuse / 16AMCB for each heater, or you have have several on a larger fuse/MCB

More recent installs, the timer is built into the meter, and if it is the right type it will probably have a dedicated live out that is only on at E7 times. Older installs had a separate powered clockwork contraption that did the job. (the clockwork bit was intended to keep the thing running during power cuts, so the time did not drift)

Yup, unless you can move them (or the whole E7 CU) temporarily to the main supply.

The traditional one is midnight to 7am... but other times are also used.

[Jack Harry Teesdale]

The E7 storage heaters *should* be on a separate consumer unit with a main switch and fuses/c.b's at or near the meter. Caution is advised when touching live equipment.

The E7 hours are normally a 7 hr variable period between 11pm and 8am older systems had sealed supplier time switches, more modern (post 1990) have radio controlled teleswitches, neither are customer adjustable.

If you could post a photo of the meter/fusebox position we might be able to guide you better.

[Harry Bloomfield Esq]

Brian Gaff (Sofa) brought next idea :

Sounds like early Wylex MCB's - small button to trip off, larger button to reset.

Depends on the date of the install. Modern MCB's are like a toggle switch - up for on.

[Brian Gaff (Sofa]

OK thanks. I now have tested this and all breakers for each of the heaters are still on. They are of the up for on type, not the much easier to find by touch, button push type. Yes second consumer unit it is, under a plastic hood which hinges down. Bad news. There is no volts on the E7 coming from the meter since Christmas day, apparently and because EDF and no doubt everyone else is not available as a one to one chat till Wednesday, I have deployed fan heaters and oil heaters around the house, and its very lucky that its not cold at the moment. This all suggests one of two things, Either some dingbat at EDF has turned it off, or the meter is now buggered, a technical term for bust of course. I'm lucky that the main supply is on. Of course the electronic display which talks just says supply on and hence it thinks all is well of course. Its always been a concern of mine that these so called smart meters seem to have no indication of the status of e7 at all apart from in the middle of the night showing a different tariff ie kw hours on the talking display.

It all rather reminds me of back when we got our first 'new' meter which had a digital output, replacing the old rotating dial ones. That meter lasted a year, then it failed completely, now this newer one has not lasted more than a few months. Maybe they should get some artisan to get those old mechanical meters refurbished. grin. Brian

[Brian Gaff (Sofa]

As I say my water heater is on the main supply but has an electronic time switch which can be bypassed when required. I'm very glad I had it done this way, once burned twice shy of course. The question now is is it the meter or some software issue like a fat fingered person at the edf end which turned it off? In a way, I hope its their end, as otherwise we have all the upheaval of changing the meter over for a new one. Brian

[Brian Gaff (Sofa]

No as I say its a smart meter and from what is said here its the actual meter that turns it on and off. Brian

[Brian Gaff (Sofa]

There is no indication on the menu or the smart display. It has been working fine until Christmas day night. I sent a fuller item earlier. Zoom is no good for totally blind I use voice over on an I phone and its not that intelligent yet! There is an edf app, but not really of use in such a situation as like the meter it says all is well when its clearly not. Short of getting an electrician in to dismantle the e7 consumer unit and measure the volts coming out of the meter wires in the middle of the night, there is little more I can do till they decide to answer their phones to book an engineer, in the meantime, we continue to use KWWs at the daytime tariff until somebody can sort it. I'm suspicious of the date, since its a huge coincidence that it should go off on Christmas day. I had thought the circuit breakers might show a fault but they are all still on, so we can by a simple process of elimination be able to say that whatever it is that switches e7, has stopped actually supplying volts.

Brian

[Roland Perry]

In message [e-mail], at

03:54:52 >> >> >

Yes, it's famously 7hrs.

There are charts online, but it also depends on how accurately the local timer is set.

The earliest switch on is supposed to be 10pm, the latest switch-off a surprisingly late 8:30am (which is not off-peak as far as most of the working public is concerned).

[Brian Gaff (Sofa]

Well you are incorrect, I did ring their priority number to be told they were closed, or rather when they were open, and then it simplycut me off, I rang the emergency loss of supply number and this one goes to London Power networks, who though sympathetic, will only act if the supply is completely lost from the premises. They can report my issue but the guy I spoke to, Clive, said they had rung their priority number which had the same message as my number did. They said there is a whatsapp and live web chat, but when we tried the latter it was closed. Seems that they are just not there unless its a complete supply loss. I think this is very bad, but apparently London Power networks have had the same experience with all the energy companies, and have informed Offgen that the system is unworkable over a year ago. The original excuse is that their staff now work from home and hence normal services cannot be guaranteed, which sounds like a cop out to me. What was that spoof political speech that Peter Sellers recorded in the

1950s. We do not consider current conditions likely. In other words nobody thought the system through in the first place. Nothing new in this world, as is often the mantra. Lessons will be learned but the caveat is, but only as long as the current staff are in post and we can afford to do it. Brian

[Brian Gaff (Sofa]

Gas yes. I have no gas. They prioritise gas leaks and dangerous electricity supplies but that is it and those are national and regional numbers not allied to the companies who you are paying. I rang the dangerous situation linked telephone number and it went to British gas, the guy somewhere abroad said they no longer handled electrical emergencies that was national grid. I found out that there are three tiers. National grid, local power like London Power networks, then the actual supplier like edf. Brian

[Brian Gaff (Sofa]

Did yyou read what I said? Its simple,if none are tripped, then there is no fault so the supply is missing from the meter, and the heaters are fine. which is in the case of mine, exactly the problem. I can get no further until those who fitted the meter can either reset it remotely or come around and trouble shoot it. Brian

[Brian Gaff (Sofa]

Like I have now posted, all looks well with the breakers, and a thick cable does from there into the cluster of boxes fitted when the last meter change occurred in October so when EDF deem to actually answer a telephone, I'll report it. I will need some discount if it all turns up to be tier gear, since I'm now using normal heaters on daytime supply rates. Brian