Earthing in kitchen

[John Rumm]

Hmmm, that takes me back 35 years to my Ladybird "build your own radio" book. Seem to recall I get the crystal set working using the pipe to the gas fire as an earth ;-)

[Cursitor Doom]

45 years, surely? Unless it was a 10th anniversary reprint edition.

[John Rumm]

Only if I were 2 when I built it ;-)

Thinking about it, it was probably about the time I got my first Maplin catalogue, and that was the second one they did - so about 1980...

(to be fair it was a well out of date by the time I got mine - some of the components listed for the more advanced regenerative designed were no longer available, and others had changed spec enough to prevent their final design actually working).

[meow2222]

An option few homeowners are prepared to pay for. Given the zero rate of death from unRCDed lighting, and how common it is for disorientation to set in in a fire, RCDs on lighting will almost certainly kill people unnecessarily.

NT

[meow2222]

You might think so, but disorientation even in very familiar locations is a major problem in fires, and costs many lives.

NT

[Tim Watts]

I remember the time I got my first maplin catalogue. 1979, because I was in the 3rd year at middle school and I took it in to read in the playground.

I'm pretty sure the catalogue had been available for a year of two before... But I could be mistaken.

My folks let me take a train and tube upto Hammersmith to go to the shop when I was about 11. My daughter is 10 and there's no way she's going to London by herself... And the odd thing is, London was a damn sight more dangerous then with the IRA making stuff go bang.

[meow2222]

But since CU replacement is often done in order to fit RCD protection, we c ould add on average (for want of any better figure) maybe 50% of the cost o f fitting a new CU as well.

which page(s) do you get that from?

/6762/568234.pdf

Sure, £55k per 1 life and 100 shocks would be good value. But we'd need t o get the figures closer first before drawing a conclusion.

Shock is nasty. Death is tragedy.

NT

[John Rumm]

I believe the 1979 one had a picture of concord on the front _ I think that was their first proper catalogue - but I am not certain. I never had that one. I did have the next one which had a spaceship on it - an artwork commissioned for them IIRC, the same artist did the next few covers as well. (you could also order it as a poster)

A couple of pics in this thread:

It may well have been - as I say my intro was about 1980.

I think when I first went there, the shop in Westcliff was still the original and only branch - Hammersmith and a couple of others opened shortly after that.

Not to mention you were not instantly contactable on the end of a mobile in those days either. Yup its funny how ones perceptions change - especially attitudes to risk. (and particularly when you are the parent rather than the child).

[John Rumm]

You can get complete lights for £15 these days. Nor more expensive to fit than a smoke alarm.

From where do you conjure that statistic?

Lights can fail in fire regardless of the type of circuit protection.

The survival time of lighting in general is unlikely to be much affected by RCDs. It will work until the point when the insulation on a cable is damaged to the point of getting a short circuit between conductors.

In the broader analysis they will protect for more people than they injure.

[John Rumm]

Which is precisely why you should discuss escape plans with the family and plan routes - get them to practice it blindfolded, while on their hands and knees.

[John Rumm]

And a mains powered one is significantly more likely to be working when it matters.

[Tim Watts]

Indeed. Hanging around London Victoria looking at the Solari boards for my train home.

The walk down Kings Road in Hammersmith seemed like a really long way then - but the blokes in the store knew their subject!

[Bob Eager]

Maplin have had a history of locating shops in rather downmarket places (although new ones are often on retail parks).

Two that come to mind are London Road in Brighton, and Luton Arches in Chatham. I used to park down behind the latter, and there was a murder there at one point.

[meow2222]

its still an option few pay for

the stat was total 1 electrocution death from ES, zero from BC bulbholders. Unfortunately I dont recall where its from. IIRC its why we still have bar e live bits in bulb sockets.

Peter Parry:

a note of it. The only reliable source of information I have seen was a study carried out some years ago which looked at detailed "first attender" reports only of deaths in fires. In a significant number of these the lights were out (RCD tripped) and the occupants had failed to find their way out. Most of the fires occurred after they had gone to bed and were usually caused by discarded or forgotten cigarettes. In a 12 month period it was possible to identify about 5 deaths (in one fire authority area) in which the lack of light was most probably a major contributor to death in that the fire was insufficiently developed at the time the occupants woke to kill them but they failed to find their way out and died in rooms where they had not been asleep and which were not on the escape route.

I am personally aware of a fire (not included in those figures and not in that area) in which two adults and two children died against a locked front door having dropped the key to allow them to get out and having failed to find it. The evidence was that they had more than sufficient time to escape and had been trapped behind the front door for some minutes. The lights in that instance had almost certainly failed because the RCD had tripped as witnesses reported the house in darkness some time before the deaths (they didn't even think there was anyone in the house).

As far as falls are concerned most of the evidence is in the statements of people who have survived rather than have died. I am not aware of any formal study which tracks this data but a small scale study in an elderly care unit at Salisbury (Odstock) done as part of a student thesis in about 1990 indicated that about 5 out of

20 people had fallen part of the way down stairs at night because all their lights had gone out when they turned the bedroom light on and they had gone down to fix the problem.

Why "all" the lights failed wasn't recorded and some were undoubtedly simply a bulb failing and the occupant not checking any other lights. However it was noted that a higher than expected number of falls at night took place in Local Authority housing - all of which in that area had recently been rewired and had whole house 30mA RCD's fitted.

The fall mortality data is from the Office of National Statistics and the Fire Data from there and the ODPM (which collates fire information). I'm not sure the same years were used for both so there may be some variations but they are not huge. The cause of death in fires study is not in the public domain as far as I know. The Odstock one should be as it was a thesis but I have no idea where to find a copy (the student concerned came from Bristol University if I remember correctly).

of course. that doesnt change RCDs increasing lighting fails.

fire produces a whole lot of smoke. Smoke causes leakage, sometimes resulti ng in an RCD trip at the one time you really do need lighting.

If preventing 20% of fires is really true, then probably. RCDed sockets and nonRCDed lights might be a better option though.

NT

[meow2222]

Yup. How many here have done that? Ever?

NT

[Adam Funk]

From what I've seen, emergency lighting isn't that expensive. (IMO, it ought to be required in new builds & renovations for rental.) The problem is that all the fittings I've seen look "too commercial" for most people's taste.

[damduck-egg]

Given that often to get some breathable air people need to get low to the floor then it may be prudent to have some low level lighting as well.Fairly easy to provide now with Led strip etc. Still have the decor problem. Many won't want skirting adorned with such lighting and inserting into a floor rules out floor coverings like carpets. Thinking as I type could it be practical to project a laser beam such as used on leveling devices etc. An emitter set to point down a hallway could be fairly innocuous, it would need to be offset from the center of the hall so escapees don't block it with their own bodies.

G.Harman

[John Rumm]

It does not take much encouragement during a rewire I have found.

Ah I see, you are conflating unrelated issues.

Indeed the electrocution risk from a lamp holder is negligible. However the risk from penetration of a live cable with a fixing etc is just the same as any other circuit cable.

RCD tripped as opposed to fuse blown or MCB tripped. How many tripped RCDs simply prevented another protective device activating?

Sounds like a good argument for mandating fitting smoke alarms with built in lights.

Again why blame a RCD? Its not *that* much more likely to trip than any other CPD when you start melting a cable.

Most likely a fuse or MCB as a result of a filament lamp failure. Definitely and argument in favour of emergency lighting.

A whole house RCD is very likely to result in nuisance tripping. That is a case of improper use / design and not a flaw of the device itself.

The document I linked previously does give fire death information nationally.

and that does not change the fact that the overall benefit equation is still very much in the RCDs favour.

Possibly - I doubt there is sufficient data on 17th edition style installs available yet.

[John Rumm]

Indeed, and that is an issue it would be nice to see resolved. The range is improving slowly.

I find if using the small 8w tube type, you can make them look far less objectionable by sinking them into the ceiling, so just the transparent cover projects.

[Tim Watts]

You can also get non-maintained batter packs that can be retro fitted to certain lamp types (in the ceiling or somewhere else, obviously if the fitting is too small to contain):

This is a good candidate with some small downlighters with LED lamps fitted.